He Told His Coach the Truth. It Changed Everything
Summary
Welcome to my interview with Greg Weinger on his Powerful Introvert Podcast. We spoke on these topics:
- My career as an entrepreneurial coach and my personal recovery journey.
- How I joined Robelle and my transition to coaching entrepreneurs.
- The ways I help entrepreneurs who face addiction challenges navigate business environments where drinking is common.
- I explained my approach to coaching, including building resiliency and establishing healthy company cultures.
- Greg and I talked about the importance of self-care and finding what renews your energy.
- I shared how my coach Kevin Lawrence played a crucial role in my recovery journey, which began 16 years ago.
- We discussed how entrepreneurial values shape company culture and the importance of accountability.
- I offered advice for professionals looking to advance their careers.
https://powerandplay.substack.com/p/he-would-never-let-me-off-the-hook
Transcript
Greg Weinger (00:00): Hello, welcome to the Powerful Introvert Podcast. I’m here today with David Greer. Welcome, David.
David Greer (00:08): Hi, Greg, and thanks for having me. I’m really looking forward to being on the show today.
Greg Weinger (00:13): Yeah, glad you’re here. Really excited to talk to you because you’ve had a really successful career, obviously in startups. I’ve spent time in startups, but really the last 20 years. And you’ve been a senior executive, an angel investor, which is another measure of your success. And more recently executive coach, is that
David Greer (00:36): Yeah, I coach pretty well exclusively entrepreneurs. But yeah, it’s a business coach and often I do a lot of facilitation work with entrepreneurs and their senior leadership team, which gets into the whole kind of dynamic. And what’s interesting is some of those people in relation to your podcast is not everyone is an extrovert, even at a partner level, senior leadership level. And I’ve had to learn because principally an extrovert, although I’ve also learned as I’ve grown and done a lot of personal growth, that I have more introvert in me than I realized that I’ve had to get better at working with teams where that’s part of the dynamic.
Greg Weinger (01:26): Excellent. Love to get in there and there’s great field proof that people rise to the highest levels of senior leadership as introverts, as well as extroverts.
David Greer (01:36): Yes, indeed.
Greg Weinger (01:38): Yeah. And another thing that really I was drawn to is that you very courageously spoken about being sober for 15 years and the fact that you coach people, entrepreneurs who are facing similar challenges.
David Greer (01:55): Yes. Whether they’re still active in their addiction or they’ve got some recovery again operating, I think especially the more senior you get, and then especially I think for entrepreneurs, there’s extra societal pressure. If you’re an entrepreneur and a business owner and you get invited to networking events, there’s always going to be sponsors who want to sponsor a free bar because they want access to you, the CEO, the entrepreneur. And How do you navigate that? How do you navigate senior if you have any kind of product or service that’s in a complicated kind of sale where multiple people at your prospect organization must be involved, it’s not uncommon that the CEO has to fly down and do the closing dinner thing, which can often involve a lot of booze.
Greg Weinger (02:58): And
David Greer (02:58): Again, how as a sober person do you operate in that environment where there’s this really high business societal expectation around drinking? Those are some of the issues that I help people navigate as well as just the day-to-day issues of being in recovery and still having a high stress position. And let’s be clear, building and running a business is generally high stress. How do we cope with that and what do we do instead?
Greg Weinger (03:27): That’s right. And that ties into this whole aspect of change. And typically people who are going into a position like this, starting a business or running a business, these are just very stressful situations and most of us aren’t naturally wired. Our nervous systems aren’t wired to be able to handle all of that. And you have to adapt and develop the capacities to meet those situations.
David Greer (04:00): Well, and I think for all of your listeners, regardless of what their position is and what they’re doing, life has stressors. That’s part of being human to varying degrees. One of the things I work with clients on is what do you do to build your resiliency? My former coach, Kevin Lawrence has this framework where he talks about three parts of your life. Career, finances, business, then life and relationships. That’s typically your spouse, your kids, your friends, but especially for high performing people, but really for all people. There’s this piece in the middle, which is self and particularly high performing. I’ll speak mostly for high performing individuals, one, and that’s mostly what I work with. Highly driven people. They’re really bad at looking after themselves. I help people often just rediscover What are those things that really renew you, that give you energy that lets you have a time out? And how do we put more of that intentionally back into your life? And societally, at least in the West, we have this real issue with being selfish. And even sometimes when I’m doing things that are just for me, I have people around me, well, you’re being so selfish. Well, yeah, I am, and this is what I need right now. It’s no apologies needed.
(05:44): I’m worn out, I’ve been working too hard, I need to have this. And it’s taken me a long time to get to that point where I’m okay doing that. I’m a people pleaser. This idea of doing things that are just for myself is actually being quite a difficult piece of personal growth. My former coach, Kevin Lawrence also talked about, this model of making sure when you plan out a quarter, what are you going to do for your career in business? What’s one major thing you want to achieve in your life? Relationships, but what’s at least one thing you’re going to do in this quarter to build your resiliency? Go on a trip, jump out of a plane, go race a car, or for me, go sailing. And he talks about a pendulum. If we are of service to others, and really at the extreme we are completely selfless, and then the pendulum swings back the other way where we’re completely selfish and most pendulums, it needs to swing back and forth and ebb with what’s going on in our life. But if we are completely selfless, we will burn out. There’ll be nothing of us left.
(06:58): This is what happened to me with alcohol was it took over my life. There was nothing of me left towards the end until I got into recovery and could recover myself, really was what was most important. And then by doing that, there was more of me to be available for others.
Greg Weinger (07:23): That’s really the key. And whether it’s people who are pouring themselves into their work or they’re struggling with addiction from the outside, that feels very selfish or looks very selfish, but there’s not going to be anything left of you for other people unless you are taking care of that part of yourself.
David Greer (07:47): In my case, I was a super high performing alcoholics, I still probably was about 80% there, but there was 20% of me that wasn’t present, that wasn’t there. That was completely consumed with where am I going to get my next drink? And I remember one Saturday afternoon and it’s like, we’re the playground with the kids and everyone’s having fun and I’m making up some excuse why we need to get home now six o’clock, which the only reason we needed to get home is so I could start drinking. That’s it. And that’s really being, to me, beholden to that addiction is I’m showing these behaviors that are not who really I am and who I want to be. We could have spent another hour at the playground, although by that point when we got the kids home, they would’ve been so hungry, probably would’ve been a little miserable. And maybe that’s the excuse that I used, but I mean, it wasn’t really thinking about the kids and the family. It was really about getting home and getting access to my booze.
Greg Weinger (08:55): How does that conversation go? You’re working with a high performing entrepreneur who has a similar, how often are they recognizing or wanting to get out of that versus potentially needing guiding in that direction?
David Greer (09:12): Well, and there’s not just alcoholism, addiction to drugs, but there’s workaholism, there’s, … Right? It shows up in lots of different ways. For any given client, I try and just stay curious and I just try and gently, or sometimes not so gently depending on the circumstance and the person shine some light on that behavior. And whether it’s serving them well, at the end of the day, I can’t get anyone sober. I can’t keep anyone sober. All I can do is share my experience, strength and hope and let them come to a decision that what they’re doing isn’t working for them. People come into recovery from alcohol, they want to do it, let their parents down, or they want to do it for their spouse or they want to do it for their kids. But the truth is they’ve never seen anyone get sober unless they want it for themselves. They have to get to that point that they really want it for themselves. And I think whether it’s other isms that are, I mean, at the end of the day, they’re all coping mechanisms to hide some aspect of our feelings.
(10:28): There’s some aspect of our feelings that we’re not comfortable with usually are more typically on an unconscious level. It’s not like I was picking up the drink and saying, oh, I don’t want this negative feeling. I mean, I had to spend years in recovery to figure out that’s really what I was doing and listened to a lot of other people. My recovery has been in 12 step recovery, I’m being to probably 2,500 meetings. I’ve heard a lot of people share. And the commonality is not our drinking history or our careers. What’s common is the feelings, feelings of inadequacy, feelings of not being good enough. One of my biggest fears, I’m not good enough. What do you do if your biggest fear isn’t good enough? Well, one of the things, you become an overachiever. One of the things is you become a people pleaser. If I do enough stuff, you’ll like me, and then I’ll feel like I’m good enough. But that’s a never ending spiral
(11:27): Because if that’s good enough, then I got to do twice as much next time. A lot of my growth in 12 step recovery and personal growth is just like I am good enough as I am today. And you are a human doing your best, and I’m a human doing my best. And that doesn’t make me better than you or worse than you. And it doesn’t make you better than me or worse than me. And back to kind of the topic of your podcast, again, whether you’re an extrovert or an introvert does not make you better than me or worse than me. It’s just we show up in the world differently and how can we help each other to show up at our best being who we are?
Greg Weinger (12:13): I’m really curious about the point of change and what brings people around because, and I love the way you framed that all. We’re coping with these emotions that seem overwhelming to us in an unconscious level, and there is something that has to change in the person for them to get to that point where it’s not just they want it for themselves, they in fact feel like they deserve it in some level. I think part of some of those feelings is that you don’t at some level feel that you deserve better. You don’t deserve to change because of all these negative feelings. I’ve said a few things, but what have you observed is that point of change for those people.
David Greer (13:02): My observation is that point of change is different for every individual. I can only talk about my point of change. I was a daily drinker for over 20 years, and essentially for that entire time, I was in denial about my drinking, complete utter denial. And I’d have typical kind of alcoholic behaviors. I drank enough that I’d go to the closest liquor store on Monday, but then on Wednesday when I needed more, I’d go to a different liquor store because if I went to the same liquor store, well the people at the till might think that I was an alcoholic. I’m like having this behavior where I’m going to different liquor stores through the week because of what people might think about me, not Well, maybe you are just completely denial even knowing I’m doing it for that reason and I’m still in denial.
(13:59): And that’s just how powerful addictions are. And for me, I got to a point where I literally got sick and tired of being sick and tired of being on this endless, endless hamster wheel that had me completely beaten down. And then my drinking was always kind of more later in the afternoon and then drink until I get a certain level of inebriation and then hold it there until I go to bed and pass out. And Towards the end, it’s like four o’clock is the first drink, then it’s five, and then it’s four, and then it’s three 30, and then it’s three. And I just got to that point where I was sick and tired, and I’ll let your listeners know. An coach came into my life, and I worked with that coach for nine years, but it took 18 months of working with that coach to clear everything else off the table. We got me reestablished in my career, which is why I hired him, because angel investing was extremely unfulfilling for me. I was not torquing against people at my level is kind of the bottom line. And it just was not fulfilling.
(15:17): And I needed to get back in the game and get back working with people that could torque at my level, which I eventually did. After 18 months, it’s, we cleared everything else off and then the elephant in the room is sitting there. I just couldn’t be ignored anymore.
(15:35): And that’s what took me into recovery. And I tell people when I came into recovery, I had a job, I had a house, I had a spouse, I had kids, I had two cars. And today I have a job. Well, I have my career in coaching and facilitation. I have the same spouse. Next week we’ll be married for 43 years. I have the same kids except I now have two grandkids and I have a house and two cars. If you were to look at me from the outside, you’d say, David, nothing’s changed. But what you don’t see is the person on the inside today is a completely different person than walked into the rooms of recovery a decade and a half ago. And that internal journey and that personal growth has been tremendous. That story is, all of that is very, the fact that we can have these conversations, I can even talk about many of the things we’ve already talked about so far I wouldn’t have been capable of when I first came into recovery.
Greg Weinger (16:45): Yeah, yeah, it’s quite a bit an achievement, all of it. Thank you. Up to including your 40th wedding anniversary. Yeah, that’s fantastic. I’m, I’m celebrating next week, my 25th.
David Greer (17:03): Awesome, awesome. Yeah. And in today’s world, to get to 25 years is still a miracle.
Greg Weinger (17:11): For sure. Yeah, no, yeah. And I think I joke, I can thank therapy for that. My wife and I joke, we’ve had effectively three marriages because each time it was like we had to fix it or move on. And we just keep tending to it. And we were happier than ever.
David Greer (17:31): And congratulations to having the courage in doing the work to fix it. I’d call it change. And to grow
Greg Weinger (17:39): Together. To grow together,
David Greer (17:42): Which is hard, fing work. It’s hard. And I believe worth
Greg Weinger (17:50): Agreed. When you started working with that coach, you said you had this 18 months of intense work. Do you feel in retrospect there was any part of you that thought it was setting down the path that where it eventually led you
David Greer (18:08): Zero? None?
(18:10): Absolutely not. I never would’ve hired him if I thought that that was going to be the outcome. I wasn’t ready and wasn’t why I hired him. I hired him because my career was completely unfulfilling and I met him in an event and he made me more uncomfortable than I’m being in three or four years. I had tears in the corners of my eyes from just a couple of questions he asked me. But Kevin also is my kind of person, you’re all in or you’re all out. Our first coaching session was on my 50th birthday, August 9th, 2007. And with Kevin, your initial coaching session was two eight hour days
Greg Weinger (18:49): All in, that’s all in
David Greer (18:52): For both of us. That’s a commitment. When I got to the point of admitting to him I had a drinking problem, I also knew we had worked long enough together and built enough trust that I knew once I told him, I knew he would never let me off the hook. I didn’t know what it would look like. I didn’t know a lot of stuff. I just knew that once it was out, there was no taking it back. And as it turned out, he had a recreational home in Washington state and a lot of summers there sitting around the campfire, he’d met a couple of people with 20 years in 12 step recovery. And he doesn’t have a drinking problem, but he’s an infinitely curious coach. He’d had a lot of conversations with people about their recovery and how they came in and how it worked and for them.
(19:45): And when I showed up with the drinking problem, he knew how to coach me. He had a solution, which I didn’t learn probably for five or six years after I got sober that he had this experience. And then finally it came out in a conversation we had, I made a commitment to him. That was a Tuesday, January 27th, 2009, and I made the commitment to go to a meeting by that Friday and then being the overachiever that I am later that afternoon, I was going downtown for a networking event. I knew it would end about eight. I went online and I looked and lo and behold, there was going to be a meeting, a quarter of a block off the road. I’d be driving down to go home at eight 30. The universe meant it to happen. I walked into that meeting, took me years before I admitted how scared I was to go to that meeting. And a month or so later I made it my what’s called a home group, which is the group you commit to being of service of and showing up every week. And I was there this week, same group, and 1, 2, 3, there was at least three people in the room on Tuesday night who were there the night that I walked in.
Greg Weinger (20:58): That’s awesome.
David Greer (21:00): That have been there to witness my entire journey. And I can’t explain how special a feeling that is to have those people in my life and to still have them being a witness to my sobriety.
Greg Weinger (21:17): That’s really beautiful. Just thinking about the steps that led you to that path, and it sounds like that relationship with a coach was this crucial bit, you had established strong bond of trust to him. This was somebody who you trusted to hold you accountable and keep you
David Greer (21:39): Honest. Yes. And because the program I practice is the spiritual program, I’ve really come to really believe that the universe put Kevin in my path so I could get sober
(21:54): And what a gift that’s been. And recently I celebrated my 16 years of sobriety. And here locally in Vancouver, we do that by what we call having a cake, which means mostly that I’m asked to share more extensively about what it was like, what happened and what it’s like now. And I bring a cake and Kevin is a super busy guy, but we’re still in contact. And every year I invite him to come to my cakes and he comes about every four years or so. And this year he was there and we had a nice conversation about that initial day and relived it a bit. And he did interview with entrepreneurs as well. And in fact, I just did an interview with him. It’s going to come out next month. Just having that reconnection point and it is just really, really special to me.
Greg Weinger (22:50): And I imagine that’s got to be part of your inspiration in getting into coaching yourself and seeing the profound effect someone you can have as a coach on somebody else’s life.
David Greer (23:03): I launched my coaching career 10 years ago this month, and you’re a hundred percent on. I decided to become a business coach because I wanted to give to entrepreneurs the gifts that Kevin had given to me both in business and in life and in sobriety. Now, it took me a long time practicing as a coach before I decided to go public about being an alcoholic and in recovery. And as far as I can tell, I’m the only business coach that I found that specializes in that area. There might be others. And hey, if that’s what you do, I would love to hear from you and be able to compare notes. And even if entrepreneurs are people ask me, are they more prone to being alcoholics? And I’ve looked at lots of research and no one knows, but roughly 10% of the population are alcoholic or have alcohol use disorder. Even if 10% of entrepreneurs have alcohol use disorder, that’s a lot of people.
(24:10): Thank you for having me on your podcast and letting me talk so much about this particular topic because this is my purpose in life is to share my experience, strength and hope and let people know. And whether you’re an entrepreneur, no matter what your role is, what you do in life, if you struggle with alcohol, I want you to know that there is a solution. In my experience, you can’t solve it on your own. You have to reach out for help. In my case, it was Coach Kevin. I mean, false up meetings are free. You can look ’em up online, there’s an app for it go. There’ll be people who’ll be very, very happy to be able to help you. That’s like the overreaching message. I really want your listeners to take away takeaway.
Greg Weinger (25:01): Yeah, absolutely. I’m really glad to amplify that message. I’ve done some thinking about this too, and I’ve written about it. And I think what you say is right, whether even if you are not struggling with alcohol addiction or a more minor form of it, even I think the mechanism, the way humans struggle with these types of things, it is all the same. It’s the same. We have the same kind of underlying fears and issues that we drive with. And I am also a believer, I’ve benefited from having a coaching relationship who really held me accountable and whom I trusted enough to do the personal change work for myself. That’s allowed me to be very different and show up very differently in the world. And I think there’s something unique about a coaching relationship that can help you bridge the gap. If there’s ever something that you are struggling with, you feel like the person you are today cannot see the path to getting to where you want to go or feeling better or having a difference in your life, that that’s a very viable option. And there are people out there who can help you.
David Greer (26:18): Yes, totally. And the flip side of that, I’ve had a coach now consistently for 17 years. I talk about doing things that are selfish, that are just for me. Having a coach is one of the most selfish things I do. It is a hundred percent for me. It’s not for my clients, it’s not for my spouse, it’s not for my kids, it’s for me. And what a gift that is to have that one thing in my life and to have that person that I know is a hundred percent in my corner. And for your listeners, if we talk more in the corporate environment and growing, if you can’t afford a coach, find a mentor again, find someone else. You’re not trying to do it all on your own and you have someone else’s experience. I am celebrating 10 years of the publication of my book, Wind In Your Sails, which was a book by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs. And the reason I wrote it was I drove into a lot of potholes and it’s like
(27:37): You can drive into those potholes, but maybe you don’t want to drive into the ones I drove into go learn from my experience. At least avoid those potholes. There’s lots more. You’ll still drive into lots. That’s why I wrote the book was because I’m wearing a lot of scar tissue and maybe you don’t have to wear all of it. And it’s the same by getting a mentor. It’s like lean into their scar tissue. It doesn’t mean they’re right about everything, but it’s that you can listen to their experience. You can get them to reflect how they see what they’ve experienced in life into your situation. And again, you don’t have to take everything they say, you can take everything they say with a grain of salt, but at least it can open you up and shine light into corners that you never even thought of
Greg Weinger (28:25): Indeed. And you’ve done a lot of that as a coach. And I wanted to ask you also about how you help entrepreneurs because entrepreneurs have a profound effect on the people who work for them, the CEOs in general. They establish the culture, they establish the norms, and these are the structures, how people’s day-to-day lives are organized. And I think before we spoke about how cultures derived from the values. How do you work with your entrepreneurs to establish healthy values or values that work for them and for their people?
David Greer (29:06): Well, usually I work a lot with owner founders who’ve started business and grown it. And my experience is that the company usually has the values that come from the founding owners or partners and maybe a couple of critical first hires, especially if they were quite senior. The first part is are they open to talking about the culture? We have to get past that one. Then it’s encouraging them to go on a discovery process. People have this idea of altruistic values should be altruistic or good or for the betterment of the world. Well, there’s some cultures where to be in that company you need to be an asshole. That’s the culture of the company. And I don’t judge that. It’s not the kind of people I like to work with, but I don’t judge it. I mean, there’s some really big, really powerful companies have got built with cultures like that.
(30:10): First of all, can we go on a discovery process, which in Good to Great talks about it, there’s a couple exercises. One is if you were going to go to Mars, who in your team would you take with you? Or another way to ask the question is, who would you rehire in a heartbeat and why? And what characteristics do they demonstrate? And from that go on this discovery process, these are our values. Now, you may want to over time change some of them, although that probably will require changing you changing and it may require you changing some of the people in the company. And then having discovered the values, you have to make a decision as the senior leader whether you’re going to actually live them,
(31:01): Because employees, you can write all this stuff down and put it on a wall and talk to people about it and rah, rah, rah. But I tell you, every employee’s going to watch every move you make. And if you violate those values, they’re like, oh, well that one doesn’t count. You have to really deeply live those values. The work I do is around a lot of stuff from Vern Harnish, his two books, Rockefeller Habits and Scaling Up. And in both of those books, he talks a lot about culture. And that’s because those cultural values really define people’s behaviors. People behave certain way when they have these values and when you have a lot of people who have similar behaviors, now their personalities can be different, their skills can be different, but their straight shooters, they tell the truth. I have one client that’s one of their core values.
(31:58): And what happens if you bring someone into the organization, hire someone who’s not a straight shooter, usually they get ejected like a virus because they’re just not consistent. And when everyone’s behaviors are aligned, you need to communicate less and people just operate better together and achieve more because their behaviors are consistent with each other, even still leaning. Again, I want to make sure we’re not talking, I think might’ve talked at the start of the conversation or maybe before we started recording about a firm who hired everyone who liked a certain sports team. That’s not a behavior, that’s not anything actually.
(32:42): We’re looking at things that are significantly deeper. And then I do a lot of coaching with entrepreneurs around difficult conversations and all of us avoid difficult conversations to one extent or another. And then if you’re like me and a people pleaser, you really avoid those conversations. But now as a coach, I am much more comfortable having difficult conversations with my clients, and those difficult conversations are either pointing out a value transgression where people are not operating away that is consistent with the values of the company or the accountability discussion. You’ve assigned them a task. They’re supposed to do something by a certain time. They don’t do it. And we tend to, I’m Canadian, so we apologize before we’ve even stepped out of the door
(33:37): Because that’s our culture. But that doesn’t work well in the business environment. I mean, you need to hold people accountable, and if they don’t like you for it, that’s okay. And we think it’s not kind. Well, I’m going to call this person on their ship. Well, I would argue that not calling them on their stuff is the most unkind thing you can do because they have no opportunity to learn. They have no opportunity to know what’s working, what’s not working. They have no opportunity to grow and be a better self in the future because you haven’t given them the feedback that they need. The most kind thing you can do is hold people accountable.
Greg Weinger (34:18): Yeah, that’s really true. That’s a deeper, more true level of kindness.
David Greer (34:26): But I have this conversation with clients who all I want to be kind. Well, you can have the conversation in a kind way. You don’t have to blast them, and you don’t have to make ’em wrong or bad. You do have to point out that this is the expectation. This is what was supposed to happen. You can be curious with them about why it didn’t, but you still need to hold them accountable.
Greg Weinger (34:50): You can deliver an unpleasant truth without being unkind.
David Greer (34:56): Right?
Greg Weinger (34:57): Yeah. Sometimes people talk about being nice versus being kind. I think kind is really doing what’s best for the person and the individual and nice is kind of smoothing the surface, not disturbed things. That sounds like great advice, and I think we talked about this before, not every company is going to be a great fit for your personality. And so for people who are maybe quieter or you don’t like people who are assholes, you’re kind of more into kindness. There are going to be some companies and cultures that are just not a good fit for you.
David Greer (35:38): And my youngest son is currently applying for and looking for new jobs and going through that HR hiring process. He’s a software developer, so it’s a pretty arduous process and what I’ve suggested to him. We get into this hiring process, especially when we’re younger in our career, but I think at almost any stage where we tend to think we have to jump through every hoop of the hiring process of the business we want to join. And I’d encourage people, well, this is a two-way street. If you’re good enough to be hired by them, they’re lucky enough to get you. And It’s okay for you to have questions about their culture and questions about how they work, and if they don’t want to answer any of those, well, in some ways that’s an answer. And is that the kind of organization that you want to work for? Because sometimes when you’re going to a new firm, especially a bigger firm, it can be very hard from the outside looking in to determine what the culture is.
(36:46): Then you’re at the end of this rapid fire hiring process where you feel like you don’t get to ask questions. You can very easily get into that. Whereas I’ve helped people with career transitions and I’m like, can you find other people who work there that you can talk to? I mean, go on LinkedIn, find other ways, but you don’t want to go and work there for three months and then go, oh my God, this was so awful and it doesn’t look good on your resume. You’re moving firms, but I mean, you’re moving for the right reason. It’s a terrible cultural fit. But then people start looking at you like, oh, you don’t have commitment. Well, yeah, because a limit of commitment to emotional crap I’m going to put up with. It’s striking that balance. But again, in some ways I think people, when they want to go find a new role, research the culture of the company before you even apply, think about that cultural fit for you.
Greg Weinger (37:44): That’s right. And this notion that your performance, you’re going to perform better in a place that is a better fit for you. You’re going to get along with people more. You’re going to show up better and communicate better. You’re
David Greer (37:57): Going to have more joy. A lot of my work with entrepreneurs, it’s like what gets you to jump out of bed with joy in the morning looking forward to work? Or if they’re burnout for work, then I ask them that for other things in their life. But we only have one life. Why not choose a life where you want to bounce out of bed in the morning and you’re looking forward to it and you’re not dreading it? Sure, there are always periods in our career where things are going on in a business or you’re overstressed where it’s not as much fun. But what we want is the trend line and the overreaching experience to be positive and to get clear on ourselves, is this a little blip in the road or is this a bigger trend for the company? If it’s a bigger trend, it’s more worrisome. And if it’s a small trend, then what, if anything, can I do to change this trajectory today? I love coaching clients. I don’t have trouble getting out of bed in the morning going, doing my workout and getting ready to be my best for the clients I’m going to work with today. I mean, I already had a call just before yours with a client of mine.
Greg Weinger (39:05): That’s great that you found that work for you and really motivating you.
David Greer (39:09): Yeah, yeah, totally.
Greg Weinger (39:12): I thinking about my audience, people maybe really at any level kind of aspiring to move ahead, but perhaps feeling stuck. What advice would you have for people in that situation?
David Greer (39:26): Don’t wait. How can you show leadership capability in your current role? How can you take on things that show you’re ready for that next role? My son works for Lululemon. Their process, you have to essentially have worked in your next role for a year before you were formally given that role. They really test drive you and make sure you’re ready for it, which I think is a very powerful thing to do. I really think I give Lululemon a lot of credit. It’s always been interesting to me is when a crisis arises in a business. You see, as a senior leader, I look to see who bubbles to the top in the crisis. And often it’s like the person you least expect. And that’s the person to put more time and energy into developing because a person that is willing to take some risks and rise above and show up, imagine there was a crisis, how could you rise to that? And then how can you take that learning and apply it to your work today? You have a lot of power to demonstrate to those that you work for that you are ready to go to the next level.
(40:48): And if you’re just passive and wait for it, well, you might wait a long time.
Greg Weinger (40:53): Yeah, it’s cool. Lululemon makes that a formal policy similar to advice that I’ve given before, is just actually go ahead and do the role, look for those opportunities to start doing it. And you’re like, look, I’m already doing it. And then your boss can turn around, look, they’re already doing it. That sounds like what you’re saying.
David Greer (41:17): Yeah. And they’re ready.
Greg Weinger (41:19): Yeah, it’s clear. The evidence is right there.
David Greer (41:23): Exactly.
Greg Weinger (41:26): David, this is really cool. I want to give you a chance, if people want to know more about you and your career, where can they look online?
David Greer (41:34): The way is to visit my website, which is coachdjgreer.com. That’s Coach D as in David, J as in james greer.com. And I want your listeners to know, on the top left corner of every page of my website is my phone number and my email address, and I offer free one hour of coaching to anyone that wants it. All you have to do is reach out and if you don’t want to use my email or my phone number, there’s a contact form too. You can use that. Either way, just reach out to me and we’ll schedule something and I’ll help you with whatever challenge is in front of you right now.
Greg Weinger (42:17): That’s very generous. Just like you’ve been very generous in sharing your life story and your advice with me here today. Thank you so much, David.
David Greer (42:25): Oh, thank you. And thank you for having me. or another. And then if you’re like me and a people pleaser, you really avoid those conversations. But now as a coach, I am much more comfortable having difficult conversations with my clients, and those difficult conversations are either pointing out a value transgression where people are not operating away that is consistent with the values of the company or the accountability discussion. You’ve assigned them a task. They’re supposed to do something by a certain time. They don’t do it. And we tend to, I’m Canadian, so we apologize before we’ve even stepped out of the door
(33:37): Because that’s our culture. But that doesn’t work well in the business environment. I mean, you need to hold people accountable, and if they don’t like you for it, that’s okay. And we think it’s not kind. Well, I’m going to call this person on their ship. Well, I would argue that not calling them on their stuff is the most unkind thing you can do because they have no opportunity to learn. They have no opportunity to know what’s working, what’s not working. They have no opportunity to grow and be a better self in the future because you haven’t given them the feedback that they need. The most kind thing you can do is hold people accountable.
Greg Weinger (34:18): Yeah, that’s really true. That’s a deeper, more true level of kindness.
David Greer (34:26): But I have this conversation with clients who all I want to be kind. Well, you can have the conversation in a kind way. You don’t have to blast them, and you don’t have to make ’em wrong or bad. You do have to point out that this is the expectation. This is what was supposed to happen. You can be curious with them about why it didn’t, but you still need to hold them accountable.
Greg Weinger (34:50): You can deliver an unpleasant truth without being unkind.
David Greer (34:56): Right?
Greg Weinger (34:57): Yeah. Sometimes people talk about being nice versus being kind. I think kind is really doing what’s best for the person and the individual and nice is kind of smoothing the surface, not disturbed things. That sounds like great advice, and I think we talked about this before, not every company is going to be a great fit for your personality. And so for people who are maybe quieter or you don’t like people who are assholes, you’re kind of more into kindness. There are going to be some companies and cultures that are just not a good fit for you.
David Greer (35:38): And my youngest son is currently applying for and looking for new jobs and going through that HR hiring process. He’s a software developer, so it’s a pretty arduous process and what I’ve suggested to him. We get into this hiring process, especially when we’re younger in our career, but I think at almost any stage where we tend to think we have to jump through every hoop of the hiring process of the business we want to join. And I’d encourage people, well, this is a two-way street. If you’re good enough to be hired by them, they’re lucky enough to get you. And It’s okay for you to have questions about their culture and questions about how they work, and if they don’t want to answer any of those, well, in some ways that’s an answer. And is that the kind of organization that you want to work for? Because sometimes when you’re going to a new firm, especially a bigger firm, it can be very hard from the outside looking in to determine what the culture is.. You’ve assigned them a task. They’re supposed to do something by a certain time. They don’t do it. And we tend to, I’m Canadian, so we apologize before we’ve even stepped out of the door
(33:37): Because that’s our culture. But that doesn’t work well in the business environment. I mean, you need to hold people accountable, and if they don’t like you for it, that’s okay. And we think it’s not kind. Well, I’m going to call this person on their ship. Well, I would argue that not calling them on their stuff is the most unkind thing you can do because they have no opportunity to learn. They have no opportunity to know what’s working, what’s not working. They have no opportunity to grow and be a better self in the future because you haven’t given them the feedback that they need. The most kind thing you can do is hold people accountable.
Greg Weinger (34:18): Yeah, that’s really true. That’s a deeper, more true level of kindness.
David Greer (34:26): But I have this conversation with clients who all I want to be kind. Well, you can have the conversation in a kind way. You don’t have to blast them, and you don’t have to make ’em wrong or bad. You do have to point out that this is the expectation. This is what was supposed to happen. You can be curious with them about why it didn’t, but you still need to hold them accountable.
Greg Weinger (34:50): You can deliver an unpleasant truth without being unkind.
David Greer (34:56): Right?
Greg Weinger (34:57): Yeah. Sometimes people talk about being nice versus being kind. I think kind is really doing what’s best for the person and the individual and nice is kind of smoothing the surface, not disturbed things. That sounds like great advice, and I think we talked about this before, not every company is going to be a great fit for your personality. And so for people who are maybe quieter or you don’t like people who are assholes, you’re kind of more into kindness. There are going to be some companies and cultures that are just not a good fit for you.
David Greer (35:38): And my youngest son is currently applying for and looking for new jobs and going through that HR hiring process. He’s a software developer, so it’s a pretty arduous process and what I’ve suggested to him. We get into this hiring process, especially when we’re younger in our career, but I think at almost any stage where we tend to think we have to jump through every hoop of the hiring process of the business we want to join. And I’d encourage people, well, this is a two-way street. If you’re good enough to be hired by them, they’re lucky enough to get you. And It’s okay for you to have questions about their culture and questions about how they work, and if they don’t want to answer any of those, well, in some ways that’s an answer. And is that the kind of organization that you want to work for? Because sometimes when you’re going to a new firm, especially a bigger firm, it can be very hard from the outside looking in to determine what the culture is.
(36:46): Then you’re at the end of this rapid fire hiring process where you feel like you don’t get to ask questions. You can very easily get into that. Whereas I’ve helped people with career transitions and I’m like, can you find other people who work there that you can talk to? I mean, go on LinkedIn, find other ways, but you don’t want to go and work there for three months and then go, oh my God, this was so awful and it doesn’t look good on your resume. You’re moving firms, but I mean, you’re moving for the right reason. It’s a terrible cultural fit. But then people start looking at you like, oh, you don’t have commitment. Well, yeah, because a limit of commitment to emotional crap I’m going to put up with. It’s striking that balance. But again, in some ways I think people, when they want to go find a new role, research the culture of the company before you even apply, think about that cultural fit for you.
Greg Weinger (37:44): That’s right. And this notion that your performance, you’re going to perform better in a place that is a better fit for you. You’re going to get along with people more. You’re going to show up better and communicate better. You’re
David Greer (37:57): Going to have more joy. A lot of my work with entrepreneurs, it’s like what gets you to jump out of bed with joy in the morning looking forward to work? Or if they’re burnout for work, then I ask them that for other things in their life. But we only have one life. Why not choose a life where you want to bounce out of bed in the morning and you’re looking forward to it and you’re not dreading it? Sure, there are always periods in our career where things are going on in a business or you’re overstressed where it’s not as much fun. But what we want is the trend line and the overreaching experience to be positive and to get clear on ourselves, is this a little blip in the road or is this a bigger trend for the company? If it’s a bigger trend, it’s more worrisome. And if it’s a small trend, then what, if anything, can I do to change this trajectory today? I love coaching clients. I don’t have trouble getting out of bed in the morning going, doing my workout and getting ready to be my best for the clients I’m going to work with today. I mean, I already had a call just before yours with a client of mine.
Greg Weinger (39:05): That’s great that you found that work for you and really motivating you.
David Greer (39:09): Yeah, yeah, totally.
Greg Weinger (39:12): I thinking about my audience, people maybe really at any level kind of aspiring to move ahead, but perhaps feeling stuck. What advice would you have for people in that situation?
David Greer (39:26): Don’t wait. How can you show leadership capability in your current role? How can you take on things that show you’re ready for that next role? My son works for Lululemon. Their process, you have to essentially have worked in your next role for a year before you were formally given that role. They really test drive you and make sure you’re ready for it, which I think is a very powerful thing to do. I really think I give Lululemon a lot of credit. It’s always been interesting to me is when a crisis arises in a business. You see, as a senior leader, I look to see who bubbles to the top in the crisis. And often it’s like the person you least expect. And that’s the person to put more time and energy into developing because a person that is willing to take some risks and rise above and show up, imagine there was a crisis, how could you rise to that? And then how can you take that learning and apply it to your work today? You have a lot of power to demonstrate to those that you work for that you are ready to go to the next level.
(40:48): And if you’re just passive and wait for it, well, you might wait a long time.
Greg Weinger (40:53): Yeah, it’s cool. Lululemon makes that a formal policy similar to advice that I’ve given before, is just actually go ahead and do the role, look for those opportunities to start doing it. And you’re like, look, I’m already doing it. And then your boss can turn around, look, they’re already doing it. That sounds like what you’re saying.
David Greer (41:17): Yeah. And they’re ready.
Greg Weinger (41:19): Yeah, it’s clear. The evidence is right there.
David Greer (41:23): Exactly.
Greg Weinger (41:26): David, this is really cool. I want to give you a chance, if people want to know more about you and your career, where can they look online?
David Greer (41:34): The way is to visit my website, which is coachdjgreer.com. That’s Coach D as in David, J as in james greer.com. And I want your listeners to know, on the top left corner of every page of my website is my phone number and my email address, and I offer free one hour of coaching to anyone that wants it. All you have to do is reach out and if you don’t want to use my email or my phone number, there’s a contact form too. You can use that. Either way, just reach out to me and we’ll schedule something and I’ll help you with whatever challenge is in front of you right now.
Greg Weinger (42:17): That’s very generous. Just like you’ve been very generous in sharing your life story and your advice with me here today. Thank you so much, David.
