Shannon Latham is dedicated to elevating entrepreneurs in the shed industry through his Shed Geek Podcast, helping business owners learn, adapt, and lead with clarity. I was grateful for the chance to join him on the podcast. Here is a summary of our conversation:
- Why I now coach business owners to find clarity, direction, and sustainable growth.
- Shed business owners never planned to be entrepreneurs, yet the moment they start hiring, selling, and leading, they become one.
- Step outside of daily operations once a quarter to think strategically, rather than being trapped inside daily operations.
- Achieve your goals by creating a clear three-to-five-year vision, supported by annual goals and quarterly execution rhythms.
- Shannon and I provided solutions to common challenges in the shed industry, including adapting to digital retail, navigating generational transitions, and dealing with fragmentation.
- Build a profitable and fulfilling business, by focusing on more than top-line revenue growth.
- I shared a personal part of my journey: my recovery from alcoholism, and how asking for help changed my life and my leadership.
- Don’t do it alone. Seek support, define your vision, and build a business that supports the life you want to live.
Audio
Transcript
Announcer (00:00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Shed Geek podcast. Here’s a message from our 2025 studio sponsor.
Let’s be real, running a shed business today isn’t just about building great sheds. The industry is changing fast. We’re all feeling the squeeze, competing for fewer buyers while expectations keep climbing. And yet I hear from many of you that you are still juggling spreadsheets, clunky software, or disconnected systems. You’re spending more time managing chaos than actually growing your business. That’s why I want to talk to you about our studio sponsor, Shed Pro. If you’re not already using them, I really think you should check them out. Shed Pro combines your 3D configurator, point of sale, RTO, contracts, inventory, deliveries, and dealer tools, all in one platform. They even integrate cleanly into our Shed Geek marketing solutions. From website lead to final delivery, you can quote, contract, collect payment, and schedule delivery in one clean workflow. No more double entries, no more back-and-forth chaos. Quoting is faster, orders are cleaner, and instead of chasing down paperwork, you’re actually running your business. And if you mention Shed Geek, you’ll get 25% off all setup fees. Check it out at shedpro.co/shedgeek. Thank you, Shed Pro, for being our studio sponsor and honestly for building something that helps the industry.
Shannon Latham (00:01:35):
Okay, welcome back to another episode of the Shed Geek podcast. And I have David here with me today. And David, I’ll tell you what, I’m just going to let you open up by telling us a little bit about yourself, who you are, what you do. How about that?
David Greer (00:01:52):
Thanks, Shannon, and thank you so much for having me here today. I’m Coach David J. Greer. I’m a 40-plus-year entrepreneur, and for roughly the last decade, I’ve been an entrepreneurial coach and facilitator. I want all your listeners to know that if there’s something in this conversation today that Shannon and I are going to have that resonates for you and you’d like some help, either in your business or we’ll probably talk a little bit about my recovery from alcoholism. I offer a free one hour of coaching to anyone that is open to it. Visit my website. If you just Google my name and “coach” David Greer coach, it’ll take you to my website. And the top left corner has my phone number, my email address. Please just reach out and I’m here to help. And I promise you, after an hour together, you’ll have at least one idea to get you unstuck. I just wanted to put that out there to start.
Shannon Latham (00:02:54):
Excellent. No, that’s great. And I love that we started out with that. We just don’t take advantage of those opportunities sometimes enough, a free hour with a 40-plus-year entrepreneurial coach at your disposal. Why not take that free hour? So my encouragement to you is give them a call. You never know what happens until you do that discovery and start building that relationship. So, 40-plus years in coaching, man, you learned a thing or two, or what, David?
David Greer (00:03:29):
Maybe.
Shannon Latham (00:03:30):
Okay.
David Greer (00:03:32):
I wrote a book. It’s called Wind in Your Sails: Vital Strategies that Accelerate Your Entrepreneurial Growth. And I interviewed over 45 other entrepreneurs and sales and marketing leaders for that book. And it’s kind of a quarter theory book about 10 areas I think of every business, and then three-quarters practical ideas that you can actually implement as part of that interview process. Every chapter ends with a case study of an entrepreneurial friend of mine. You get my, well, the point I wrote it, I had about 30, 35 years of experience, but you also get all these other entrepreneurs. You get all of their experience. They’re a third of the content of the book. And why we got together and wrote this book is there’s a lot of potholes from building a business. And if you want, you can drive into all the potholes that we drove into.
(00:04:29):
That’s totally your choice. But if you’d like to avoid the potholes that we found, which are some of the more common ones, and go drive into your own potholes, you might want to check out the book. And the idea is, if you’re stuck on something, you look in the index, if you have a print version, that old-fashioned kind of thing or in the Kindle version, you just do a search and you read the appropriate chapter for maybe three, four, or five pages. And you’ll again have one idea that you can apply to the current situation you’re stuck in, for me or from one of the entrepreneurial friends whose stories that I share. We really wanted the book to have practical ideas that can move your business forward today.
Shannon Latham (00:05:12):
Well, it’s excellent because part of our audience and a major part of our audience, they’re all entrepreneurs. They all have that spirit about them. They started a business where that was starting a manufacturing facility for sheds or pole barns or furniture or wherever, all the other things, or they’ve somehow raised up in it second generation, third generation. And some folks said, “Well, I never really sought to be in business. I just built sheds for a living.” And then all of a sudden there’s all these other business concepts that go along with it. And that’s maybe not what they’re good at or what they’re familiar with or what they’re used to. So a coach or someone to help guide them along the way including myself is extremely necessary.
David Greer (00:06:11):
I want to share one little story. When I was 22, I joined a young software startup as the first employee after the founders. And I stayed 20 years and built it into a global powerhouse. For at least the first 15-plus years, if you asked me what I did, I said, “computer programmer.” But literally I’d be going to a trade show in England to give a presentation, and on the customs form it’s like “occupation: computer programmer.” And then finally I brought some outside strategy and marketing people in and they said, “What do you do?” And I said, “I’m a computer programmer.” And then they’d hold up this mirror back to me and it said, “entrepreneur”. And I said, “No, no, no, you don’t get it, I’m a computer programmer.” And then they’d hold up this mirror “entrepreneur.” And I’d probably been an entrepreneur from age 23, but I didn’t think of myself that way. When you share about people that are in the shed business who came to it by family or they’re just good with the tools and they started building them, it’s like, when did they become an entrepreneur? Well, you just became one along the way, but it actually helps if you think more like an entrepreneur if you want to build your business, which it turned out Bob Green and I, my former partner, had done quite a bit of thinking. But yeah, at our heart, we’re still computer programmers. I can really relate to that.
Shannon Latham (00:07:33):
I can relate too, because, writing this down, we used to have a program whenever I worked more in the corporate world. It was a program called “Own It.” And the whole idea behind this “Own It” program was that you treated your business as though you were the owner. Instead of, if it were retail, if someone says, “Could you give me directions to the restroom?” without trying to feel overpowering or overbearing, you’d be like, “Yeah, just right this way. I’ll show you.” Because the owner might take an extra special interest in, just like, “It’s down there, it’s down that way. Take a right, I’m working, I’m busy, I’m in the moment, I’m working in my job. So I don’t really have time to think.” And when you say “think like an entrepreneur,” well, you’re forced to do that whenever you start a business, aren’t you? Because you’re going to have all of these issues come up.
(00:08:32):
One of my favorite things is whenever people say, “I want to expand.” We get this a lot in our marketing: “I want to expand, I want to double.” And I’m like, “Ooh, do you really want to double? Because that’s going to be a whole new set of problems.” And without addressing these things, that’s why we’re having you on the show today, kind of explain these things to us, maybe some of these processes, what it looks like for a high-performing company versus a company that’s just getting by. I open the floor to you, share some thoughts. I’m curious.
David Greer (00:09:04):
Yes. We built Robelle, the software company. I joined when I was still at university. I stayed 20 years. Bob Green and I built it the way most entrepreneurs build it, which is kind of, “Let’s make it 5% better than the year before.” And it was hugely successful. Don’t knock it, it’s a perfectly valid way to plan your business.
But after taking a break, after I ended up exiting that business, Bob Green and I had a major disagreement. We only had one in 20 years, but it ended in divorce and he bought me out. My wife Karalee and I commissioned a sailboat in the south of France and we took our kids, homeschooled them for two years while sailing more than 5,000 miles in the Mediterranean. I came back, was an angel investor, and all my technology entrepreneur friends kept talking about this one-page strategic plan. And I really recommend people take a look at that. It’s from a guy, Verne Harnish, and his book is Scaling Up. And you can get the template for the plan. You can buy the book.
Clark Paquette (00:10:09):
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David Greer (00:11:20):
But I took one of my young angel-invested CEOs to a Verne Harnish event because I didn’t know anything at the time about this one-page plan, and I just had so many people tell me how wonderful it was. And he kind of blew my mind in the morning when he said the way his process works is: “Where do you want to be?” Pick a future point, three to five years out. Like December 31st, like 2027, that’d be three years out. Well, two and a half, but let’s call it three. And where do you want to be then? And what markets do you want to be in? Especially what markets do you want to be in? What product lines? And what are the key capabilities you need to build between now and then? Maybe you need to build a whole new product line, or maybe you need to move into a whole new market, or maybe you’re very satisfied with 5% growth.
(00:12:12):
And so that’s your future point, you only have two more employees and your revenue’s growing 5% a year over those three years. That gets you to whatever that number is. There’s no wrong answer to that, but it’s starting with a process that looks three years out and writing down the four or five key numbers, like number of customers, revenue, profit level, margin level, that you want to aim for in that time, which may be what you are doing today, or maybe incrementally better, maybe the same margin. And then sometimes if you want to double in that time, which is what you just said, you had a person come to you and say, “Well, you probably need to do at least one or two key hires who are going to help you to manage to that level.” In your three-year plan, one of the key capabilities or thrusts you need to do is to find this talent and attract them and be able to pay them. And then you work backwards from that to: what are the crystal-clear four or five things that we need to do for the year? My experience is either, entrepreneurs don’t write anything down and it’s very hard to be held accountable if you don’t write anything down. Also coach’s hint, if you write down your goals, it’s a 50% increase in your probability of achieving them, even if you never look at them again and even if you don’t show them to anybody.
(00:13:44):
What are your four or five goals for the year that are going to get you to that place you want to go three or five years from now? And then the core of the Verne Harnish Scaling Up process is to do quarterly planning. And a quarter is 13 weeks, and it’s enough to get a lot done and short enough that if you totally blow it completely or some new brutal fact shows up, you can course-adjust and you won’t crash the business. And so it’s this, meet once a year, figure out your new three-to-five-year goal, figure out your one-year four-to-five goals, and then plan for the quarter each quarter. And I really recommend you get offsite with your senior team to do that planning. I think it goes better if you get a facilitator to do it. And I have a video on my YouTube channel that talks about why you can do it yourself. And I’ve done it myself. I’ve done it both ways. I have a video that talks about pros and cons of that.
(00:14:42):
And anyways, because this doubling of business has a lot of consequences, which if you don’t think through the consequences of that, which I think is what you were alluding to, then okay, you do a great marketing campaign, you’ve doubled it. Well, can you supply twice as many sheds next year? Let’s say the marketing plan works brilliantly. Do you have the capability to deliver that many? Because your marketing plan and your operational plan have to march ahead together. I mean, marketing usually leads it, right? Because it takes time to generate leads. But at the end of the day, if it’s too close, if it gets too far ahead and you haven’t brought operations up to where the marketing plan is, you’re going to crash and burn. You’re going to have huge demand and just massively disappointed customers because they won’t your marketing plan worked. They want it, they are coming, they want it, and you can’t deliver. You also need that backing of the operational plan that makes sense in that doubling marketing plan.
Shannon Latham (00:15:55):
It’s almost as though we become comfortable with that too as business owners. If we’re not careful, we get comfortable with whether there’s plenty of leads coming in. “So I’m good for now, I’m good for now.” But whatever you’re doing with the least amount of success with the customer you lost, that’s just as important as the customers you’ve gained. I mean, you’re as strong as your weakest link. So your reputation starts to suffer. And I wrote this down, David, because I’ve gotten in a habit of trying to listen to you and write down some thoughts without breaking my concentration here. I wrote down something that was told to me one time before: “There’s no greater burden than a good opportunity.” As a good opportunity comes and success starts to happen, all of a sudden you’re in this tailspin because, most generation, the generation I grew up in, our parents were always like, “You better get something to fall back on. You better have something to fall back on.”
(00:16:54):
And it’s like, but nobody ever said, “You better plan for the success you’re about to have.” It was always “be prepared for failure,” not “be prepared for success.” And I think that’s something that we all do. If you are a mechanic, seems like your car always needs worked on. If you’re a carpenter, there’s always that work that needs to be done around the house. And guess what? If you’re in marketing or anything else, if you’re in manufacturing, the things that don’t get done are us taking a step back and being able to work on our business because we’re so concentrated on working in our business. Correct?
David Greer (00:17:35):
And when you’re on the hamster wheel, when you’re in the next fire, I’m not saying it’s easy, strategically to step back from the business and look at it is a really hard thing to do. We get on the hamster wheel and we get so afraid that if we don’t pedal to the max to burnout, that if we stepped off the hamster wheel and actually slowed down for a bit, we just think the business will fail. And that is almost like, probably 99% of the time, that is untrue, but it doesn’t feel like it. And I want to circle back with an interesting thing you brought up, and that happens in some of my coaching and with me as well, which is we have this fear of failure, but I think for a lot of us, we actually have a bigger fear of success.
(00:18:28):
And either from that story you’re talking about, a parental story of “you have to always have the fallback” or one of my biggest fears is “who do you think you are?” Who do you think you are to be a multimillionaire, to be too big for your britches? That actually sabotages some of our plans for our success. And again, there’s ways to work through it, but I challenge some of your listeners to wonder about that. Is there a part of you that’s actually afraid of the success that you want? Because at the end of the day, if that fear is present consciously or unconsciously, I mean it can really hold you back. And it’s better to flush it out and figure it out and what it means to you. And again, that fear, what you’re fearful of succeeding, will be different for each of us. Like the underlying belief story system that creates that. I mean, that’s part of a coach. I help people go explore that and figure that out, or I help them say, “I wonder if you’re still stuck in your fear of success. Could that be what’s showing up here in this moment?”
Shannon Latham (00:19:43):
Well, that success brings, as you alluded to earlier, a whole host of new problems. And without that three-to-five-year target that you’re talking about, how do you measure that success or how do you measure the effectiveness of your plan? Because essentially what you’re doing is just kind of throwing caution to the wind and saying, “Let’s wing it.” And at the end of the year you’re saying, “Did we make money?” I mean, it feels like we made money, but did we make money? Did we do well? Did I grow? There’s so many questions that accompany that. Did I grow? Do I want to grow more? What’s it going to take to go to this next level? Oh no, I realize that all of a sudden I’m going to have to be this employer. I’m going to have to hire three, four, or five people to take this.
(00:20:27):
And I never set out to do that. I just set out to be an entrepreneur and be successful. And it’s like, “Well, now you are”. So, you talk a lot about culture, I know. And one thing that we like to talk about culture too, and there’s this thought, and I’m curious what your thoughts are on it because it’s kind of made its circle around our industry for quite some time, and that is “If you’re not growing, you’re dying.” If your business isn’t growing, then it’s dying. What are your thoughts on that? What are your official coaching perspectives on that?
David Greer (00:21:02):
I want to go back to that word “success” because I think all too often that statement you just made “if you’re not growing, you’re dying” so by default, growth is success.
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David Greer (00:22:26):
And I challenge listeners and entrepreneurs to figure out what success means for them and not the story. For example, governments love more employment. Media loves to report that unemployment’s going down and all these jobs are being created by all these wonderful entrepreneurs. And it’s really easy to say, “Oh, I’m generating more revenue, I’m hiring more people, I’m creating more jobs. I am successful”. Well, that’s someone else’s definition of success. And you said that about your industry. There’s this story in the industry: “If you’re not growing, you’re a failure.” And I mean, maybe the dynamics of your industry—that is a true statement. I know nothing about the shed industry, I can’t speculate. Although I would say off the top, it’s quite unbelievable.
(00:23:26):
I don’t know. Let’s say you’re a $2 million-a-year business and you’re making, I don’t know what your margins are in your business, but you’re making a quarter of a million, $300,000 a year plus, and you’re taking a $100,000-a-year salary. And if you’ve got a market you’re happy with and you don’t have 10 competitors trying to beat you to the door, and you’re happy with that size of business and making that kind of money, and the runway for the next five years looks pretty good for that, go for it. You don’t need to grow. I mean, you need to be cautious if some competitors are going to come and take away a lot of your market share. And then, that’s part of making sure that strategic thinking and that marketing thinking. But as long as that’s there and you’ve got key people and you’ve got the finances to keep building, to doing what you’re doing today, go for it. I mean, you’re the entrepreneur. You are in charge. It is your choice. I don’t think you should buy into the government media: “You have to make jobs to be a successful entrepreneur.” I don’t think you should buy into the shed industry story that it’s growth or failure. It’s just a story and you decide. And then the other thing, I work with entrepreneurs, they grow the top-line revenue. Who cares? You start a business to make money. How are you going to double your profits? I’m way more interested in those plans.
David Greer (00:24:57):
That’s the hardest.
David Greer (00:24:58):
How could you build efficiencies in your business? How could you hire Shannon to be twice as effective in your marketing plans and spend half as much and get twice as many leads so that you are making more money? I work with a lot of entrepreneurs to make more money at the end of the day. I think that’s why we should start businesses. We start businesses for many reasons, but at the end of the day, go make money.
Shannon Latham (00:25:26):
Well, it has to make money. I mean even, but
David Greer (00:25:29):
Go make lots. Again, it’s like fear of people. Go make a million a year, go for it. I really encourage people: go make lots of money. Don’t just focus on generating tons of revenue. Just go make lots of money and be just proud of it.
Shannon Latham (00:25:48):
Well, the more that you, no, you’re fine. The more that you make, the more you can be giving, right? So giving is a calling, for instance. And maybe you possess the talents that have been given, the talents to be able to do that, to learn how to earn money. And then your heart is naturally to be that of a giver and not a taker. So naturally you’re like, “Well, the more I make, the more I can serve, the more I can minister” or whatever it is that your passion is for why you started business. So if you say, “Well, my job’s not to” it’s like sales. I have people all the time say, “Well, my job’s not to pressure the customer.” And I’m like, “No one’s job is to pressure the customer whenever they come in to buy a shed, but everyone’s goal is to sell the shed.” “That’s not my goal. My goal is to help them.” Well, then selling a shed will help them because that’s probably why they’re there. So there’s nothing wrong with saying, “I have the solution, I have the fix to what you need. And I want to make sure that you know that.” I mean, church works in a very similar way, but it still has to pay the bills. You still have a light bill, right?
David Greer (00:26:54):
Yeah.
Shannon Latham (00:26:54):
You still got to make money. And that’s the confusing side, is understanding your “why,” right? Understanding why do I do what I do at the end of the day? And I think that’s a challenge for a lot of people. And we have a couple of strong lines that we use, David, not to just be self-promotional this whole time. We have a couple of lines we use in our marketing. It’s strong language. “Our job is to make you money. Our job is to make you more money than you’re spending with us.” And if your marketing agency isn’t doing that, that’s what we want you to brag about. If you’re working with us by any means, it’s like, “Hey, they made me more than I spent.” Our value proposition, we’re attempting to make you more by spending with us, the professionals, to help accomplish this. So if we’re not doing that, we’re fired. We got to kill what we eat.
David Greer (00:27:51):
We understand that. Help me out. If I’m a homeowner in, say, the homeowner section of the market, what’s the biggest pain point for a homeowner? As to the top three or four, why do they want a shed?
Shannon Latham (00:28:04):
Oh, great question. So for many years it seems as though sheds have been primarily for storage purposes, for excess. What’s interesting is that now you’re starting to see, especially COVID ushered in a lot of this, home offices, additional housing maybe for an in-law suite or something along those lines. So now all of a sudden, we’ve went from building a box, right? Building a little box to store your stuff in, to building a little box that’s like another version of a home. So the tiny home movement and all of that stuff. To me, we serve both markets. We serve both the minimalist who wants to go smaller and have a smaller home and have less excess things. Then we also serve the traditional American family who’s like, “All this stuff’s not going to fit in the house. We need that.”
David Greer (00:29:01):
I got too much.
Shannon Latham (00:29:03):
“We got to put it out here.” And then that’s kind of morphed into other areas like gazebos and pergolas and play sets and post-frame and all these different things. But generally speaking, you’re attempting to solve the problem of storage. And the key point really here is backyard storage. Storage that’s convenient right there. These things get delivered on a truck, a trailer, a little couple different machines out there that move them right into place into your yard, level them up really nice. And now you have the convenience of what would be a storage unit down at the corner of X and Y Avenue, two, three, 15 miles away. “I can go right out in the safety of my backyard.” But now these people are turning them into yoga studios and music studios, and they’re becoming so much more than just a place to keep your lawnmower or your Christmas tree.
David Greer (00:29:58):
I wanted to circle back to your sales comment about helping people. My belief in marketing and sales is it’s all about the pain in the marketplace and how your pain pill solves their pain. And the bigger their pain and the better your pain pill, the more value. To me, if I were a salesperson without knowing your industry very well, I would do the discovery piece with every lead to go one or two layers. Asking, “Why do you want a shed?” Okay. And then they’ll give you the surface answer. And then you ask, “Well, why is that important to you?” And by the third time you ask “why,” you’re probably at the root, what really is bothering them? And then you just need to show them how working with you will put them out of that pain. And I think you can still be of service and it’s not a pushy, “I’m just on quota and I’m just trying to earn commission.” And you can be of service and still generate a heck of a lot of sales by really understanding deeply the pain that the individual lead has, whatever it is. Because they need the home office, because they do have a storage thing, as you say, that’s 15 miles away and they just got really tired of driving back and forth, and they still have some legitimate need for the stuff that’s in there.
(00:31:29):
When I coach entrepreneurs, I help them at a high level to better understand that and then help them to coach their salespeople to better understand and show up in that way. Pain, pain pill. Pain, pain pill. Because if you can really help the client understand the pain they’re in and then really show how your solution just puts them out of the pain, I think it just creates massive value.
Shannon Latham (00:31:51):
And the value is so valuable. What is that? Somebody was telling me about the Purdue study or whatever the other day where if value exceeds price by even 1%, you have a buyer. So it’s always about value. It’s always about what value you’re able to bring, in this case, like you said, a solution. On that note, I’m going to ask this question. I’m going to be bold, right? I’m going to ask this question. Why should business owners hire a coach? What is the value proposition there from your perspective? I see tremendous value in it, and I could probably go on and on and on, but I’m curious. This is what you do for a living. You’ve got 40 years of experience in this. I would be remiss not to ask this question. Why should business people hire a coach?
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David Greer (00:33:14):
A few reasons. One is, people oftentimes come to me because they’re in crisis or things have gone sideways or really bad, and I’m happy to be hired on that basis. A lot of people are stuck, they get to that million-dollar plateau or four- or five-million-dollar plateau, and they still want to grow the business. They’ve been working at it for three, four, or five years, it’s not growing. It’s another kind of stuckness. And they’ll hire a coach like me to help figure out why. And there’s no universal “why.” It’s specific to the entrepreneur, their situation, what the business they’re trying to build. And I guess the other piece is, as entrepreneurs, we are incredibly driven and it’s super, super hard for us to ask for help.
Shannon Latham (00:34:17):
No, but at some has ever been made on this podcast
David Greer (00:34:23):
At some point it’s just too hard to keep doing it alone. You don’t to hire’s
Shannon Latham (00:34:30):
Only 24 hours in a day, right? Yeah. There’s only 24 hours
David Greer (00:34:34):
If you don’t work with a coach, find a mentor or a peer group. I’m sure, like you’ve told me before we started, how big the shed industry is. I’m sure there are entrepreneur peer groups, or get involved in a local group and have breakfast meetings. I mean, yeah, I’m happy for you to hire me and for us to work together if there’s a fit. But there’s other solutions. And really at its core is stop trying to do it all alone. It’s just you can, but it’s pushing a wet string uphill a mountain on a muddy path. And you can do it, but it’s not the most pleasant experience and it’s a heck of a lot harder than it needs to be.
Shannon Latham (00:35:18):
A lot of entrepreneurs, you’ve probably seen this over your 40-plus years, a lot of entrepreneurs, not just “I have a hard time asking for help,” but they’re so focused on the idea that is at hand and accomplishing it, and then oftentimes they don’t know how to step away and allow for other people to be good. It consumes you because it’s your baby, it’s your idea. So to let someone else come in and kind of offer some advice, it feels like you’re having to let go. And that feels very painful and very vulnerable.
David Greer (00:35:58):
And very vulnerable. I meet many, many entrepreneurs that need help. Most of them I can’t help because they’re not open to it.
(00:36:10):
You have to get to some point where you’re at least willing to take that chance and think of things differently, which if you let me segue into a deeply personal story. I ended up hiring a coach because I was really unfulfilled after three or four years of angel investing. I didn’t understand how unfulfilled I was until I was at an event, a learning event, and there was a coach at the back of the room and I talked to him. And he made me more uncomfortable than I’d been in four or five years. In fact, I had tears in the corner of my eyes. And I ended up hiring him, Coach Kevin Lawrence, brilliant entrepreneurial coach. And we worked together for nine years, but for about 18 months, we worked together and reestablished my career and got me moving and working with more people at my level and kind of cleared all the clutter off the table till the elephant in the room was the only thing left.
(00:37:10):
And he was the first human being I admitted I had a drinking problem to. And I’d been an alcoholic for over 20 years, a daily drinker for 20 years. It was my deepest, darkest secret. I was in complete denial for almost all of that time. And I engendered enough of a trust relationship to admit it to Kevin. And we had worked together long enough that I knew once I put that out there, that Kevin would never let me off the hook. I didn’t know what that would look like. I didn’t know what would happen. But I put it out there. And it turned out in Kevin’s personal life, at his summer place around the campfire, he had become friends with someone with decades of experience in 12-step recovery. And Kevin is a very curious guy. He talked to him, how did he get in the program, how did it work for him?
(00:38:04):
When I showed up and had no idea that I had this problem, he knew what to do. He asked me to commit to going to a 12-step meeting by that Friday. This was a Tuesday, and I had a networking event downtown that ran till eight. And I went online and looked, and lo and behold, at 8:30 there was going to be a meeting, a quarter of a block off the road I’d be driving down to go home. And I went to that meeting. And about three-quarters of the way through, the chairperson asked, “Is there anyone new to the program that wants to introduce themselves?” And I waited 10 seconds. I probably waited 20 seconds. And then I finally stood up and said, “I’m David. I’m an alcoholic.” I probably didn’t know in that moment what I was really admitting to, but I was actually in fact admitting to my truth.
(00:38:51):
And a month or so later, I made them my home group. And last night I was at my home group and I’m now almost 6,000 days sober. And two people were there last night that were there the night that I walked in, to have the gift of that, walking the path together of recovery. And I share that, you know, if you’re listening and you are challenged by alcoholism or addiction, that there is help. There is hope. And if you’ve got sober or clean and you’re still struggling as an entrepreneur, I get it. I know what that is like. And I also want to share it because first of all, it took a lot for me. Kevin’s card sat by my phone for three weeks, and every time I thought about picking up the phone and calling him, the phone weighed 10,000 pounds
David Greer (00:39:44):
Until three weeks in. Kevin called me and he said, “Hey, do you remember me from the Verne Harnish event?” And I said, “Oh, yeah, I do.” I didn’t say I hadn’t thought about much else for the last three weeks, and thank God Kevin reached back out. And I want to share in that getting help, it was, one, I had the courage to hire Kevin and to get help from him, even though my motivation was career-wise and it turned out to be much bigger. And then I got help by going to a program of recovery where we help each other. And my belief, at least in alcoholism and addiction, is that the mind that got us to that point is not the mind that can get us out. It’s virtually impossible to do it on our own because we have to change the way we think, which is what the 12 steps are, a way of changing how we think and what we believe in. And it’s just two personal examples of where I reached out for help.
Shannon Latham (00:40:48):
Too much time has gone by for me to be able to call names off the top of my head. But the founder of the 12-step program, which I used to know, Bill, yes, thank you.
David Greer (00:40:59):
Bill W.
Shannon Latham (00:41:01):
He talks about going to, was it 365 meetings in 365 days or whatever it was? And it was just like, yeah, it holds a special place in my heart. Because if you’re being balanced in life and your approach to business, part of that includes—man, you’re holding a lot of people’s livelihood responsible because of what decisions you make. So if you’re an entrepreneur and you hire all these people, the decisions you make are important. So in many ways, your life is kind of on display as the owner, as the boss, as the entrepreneur, as the leading spirit behind the effort that you guys are putting out to run a tiny home company or start a shed company or a furniture company, whatever it is that you’re doing. And I think that being well-balanced in those areas and addressing those areas of difficulty, I think they’re important. And we have such a big heart for addiction recovery. I think I told you, I’ve worked for one year in the faith-based drug and alcohol rehabilitation world, and it was one of the greatest, most excellent years of my life to be able to serve. You didn’t do it for the income, you did it for the outcome, because trust me, the income, it wasn’t there. So you weren’t doing it because you were hoping to get rich on it. You had to go in with the mentality of how much you wanted to help. And there’s always this—
David Greer (00:42:43):
Thank you for your service. Thank you for your service to all the people that you helped in the time that you were there.
Shannon Latham (00:42:50):
They helped me as much as I ever helped them. That’s the way it works out. That’s the beauty of it. It does. I think some of those folks ministered more in my life. To me, I had—yeah, it’s just like people are people and some of them are absolutely excellent. And something like alcohol is not their identity. It’s part of their identity. And the truth is, man, I’ve met some of the best friends who have gone through some of the hardest stuff. Matter of fact, I love the ones that have gone through some of the hardest stuff. They’re some of the best ones to lead because they can take you to all the places they’ve been. They’ve been there, they’ve been through it. So they’re very confident and it’s good to see their confidence because they need that because they’re attempting to live in freedom from this. And—
David Greer (00:43:39):
We’re not as afraid of the darkness because we’ve been in the darkness. We know what it’s like to be helpless and hopeless.
I Fab LLC (00:43:49):
Hello. Today we’re going to take a look at I Fab’s component saw system. So we’re utilizing a DeWalt chop saw. We’ve put it on sliders, easily to adjust. We’ve automated it using pneumatics so that we can run all these saws together using one actuator. We can either actuate with a two-hand safety control here or a foot pedal. The two-hand safety control comes with board clamps here to clamp in your board, so you’re totally hands-free. We’ve got digital readout up here to find your angle as well as your length. So we have a 90-degree saw here for your super long angle cuts. We’ve also got a conveyor system to take away your cutoffs. This system is completely modular. We can add as many saws as you need. The rails can be as long as you need. For more information, visit www.ifabllc.com.
Shannon Latham (00:44:49):
There’s some of the best helpers. That’s why I love it—for your life that turned into you being a coach. And I’d love to just certainly know more about your story. One of the first things I want to do is mention, again, an hour. If you guys call David, he is committing an hour, a free hour of coaching to you. So if you go on the website and do the things, find the phone numbers, fill out the lead forms, do all the stuff to get in touch with him, he’s saying, “Hey, come on and talk with me. I’ve got an hour here so that we can figure out if it’s a good fit.” But yeah, just your story in general. I definitely want to read your book. So I don’t know if it’s on Amazon, Wind in Your Sails?
David Greer (00:45:32):
Every place that books are available, you can get it; Kindle, Kobo, whatever, however you like to consume books and Audible too.
Shannon Latham (00:45:44):
Yeah, well, I might do Audible. We definitely do a lot of Audible. I listen to a lot of podcasts, listen to a lot of music, and I listen to a lot of audiobooks, David. That consumes a lot of my life. So yeah, man, I believe people buy from people that they trust. So I definitely wanted to have you on here today to talk more about your product. Is there any questions you have for me? I always like to open up towards the end of the interview. I don’t know, we’re only close to 40 minutes in or so, but sometimes it’ll create some good conversation. Me and you don’t know each other extremely well, right? So the audience is getting this first fruit here, you know what I mean? Do you have any questions about the shed industry, David, any directions that I can point you to, podcasts?
David Greer (00:46:33):
Yeah, I’d like to dive into your experience. From your perspective today, and for the clients that you serve, what do you think is the number one challenge that they’re facing today?
Shannon Latham (00:46:50):
Man, what a good question. Because if I have to break it down to one specific thing—
David Greer (00:47:00):
Top three or four, and we can decide which one is the number one.
Shannon Latham (00:47:03):
Okay, perfect. Yeah, I would say one of the hardest things is embracing change in the retail world. We sell a product that is a retail product. If you limit this to just sheds, we sell storage solutions for people, and that’s a retail product. And to me, the way that retail is changing presents a problem, especially to a rather conservative industry. The digital world, the digital platform specifically. I think COVID helped usher a lot of that in Amazon. I mean, we’re seeing younger generations that are just choosing to shop differently.
David Greer (00:47:45):
Am I understanding correctly, the change in retail is you have this younger cohort that just want to go online and buy a shed?
Shannon Latham (00:47:54):
Yes.
David Greer (00:47:56):
Is that kind of the summary
Shannon Latham (00:47:58):
It’s seemingly moving that direction from our eyes, and what we can tell is there’s going to be, there’s not going to be less. There’s going to be more. And that’s a little counterintuitive to a more conservative industry, especially. I’ve talked with you, we have a lot of Anabaptists in our community, Amish and Mennonite. So it’s not that they’re agnostic to technology completely. There’s a lot of emails and things like that, but it’s hard to embrace wholeheartedly the tools that are going to allow you to take market share and still maintain in this brick-and-mortar space.
(00:48:33):
That’s not to say that we should abandon one space completely by any means, but it’s online sales. That’s a term that gets thrown around just all the time. And it’s like trying to reel all of these different terms in and educate through conversation. We like to use our platform with a podcast to be able to help educate some thoughts. And then of course, we service that industry too. So I don’t know, maybe we’re seen as biased as the way we see it, but we welcome anyone to come on and challenge that thought either.
David Greer (00:49:11):
And you’re also on the cutting edge. You’re selling marketing solutions to people who are trying to sell. You are seeing what is going on. Beyond changes in retail, what would be the second challenge you might identify in today’s markets for the shed industry?
Shannon Latham (00:49:29):
I think kind of going back to what we said at the beginning of the podcast, a lot of guys got into building sheds because their dad built sheds. So it’s kind of like normal to, “Well, let me take over the family business or let me get involved.” But is there a conviction on that? Does the business drive them? Does it feed whatever their success is? I really know that a lot—
David Greer (00:49:56):
Their parents’ “why” was to be in business for whatever reason that was important to them. And now the second generation, they don’t have the same “why,” or they’re having trouble figuring out why they want to continue to run the business. Is that a fair comment?
Shannon Latham (00:50:13):
That’s very fair, yes.
David Greer (00:50:15):
Yeah,
Shannon Latham (00:50:17):
And I think outside of that, it’s a fragmented industry. So we have a lot of different pieces to the industry. There’s wholesalers and then there’s consignment and there’s just not a one-size-fits-all, right? There’s not a one solution software that helps, and there’s a lot of guys trying to race to get to that. But to me, with the fragmentation of the industry, you were in software. Every time we work with or build a software, it seems like in the industry it may fit 60% or 70% of the clientele, but it’s really hard to create something that is going to be sustainable for all the uniqueness that exists in our industry.
David Greer (00:51:09):
My coach’s challenge to you would be, is 70% good enough?
Shannon Latham (00:51:13):
Perhaps,
David Greer (00:51:15):
Is it worth pursuing that 30% outlier given how much customization and work and how many little different pockets there would be? And just to stay hyper-focused on the 70% that you cover now, just really be awesome in there. That’s my coach’s question to you.
Shannon Latham (00:51:35):
No, I think it’s a great question. I think it’s very fair, and I would almost challenge some of my friends who even advertised with me here on the podcast to consider that question today because I think a lot of them have either not come to that conclusion or some have come to that conclusion already that “we’ve built this, we’re going to serve the greater good, the greater majority. It’s going to be really hard to customize every detail based off of all of these nuances.” And I think it’s the same way for even a shed. I had somebody, I had a shed manufacturer tell me the other day, I want to keep that anonymous. It’s a sizable company and people would know the name. And I was talking to one of the people in charge and they basically said, “We kind of got away from all these other products. We did focus on the 70%.” To your point here, David, “We didn’t get into chicken coops and dog kennels and all these other things.” And as a dealer and someone who’s been a dealer before, you want everything you can sell. You want anything you can get your hands on because that’s going to help increase your success from a financial perspective. So you want to sell more. But their thought was, “Well, it takes away the focus. It takes on selling the bread and butter, the primary product.”
David Greer (00:53:01):
If we go back to some of the things we talked about, first of all, success, just selling more is not necessarily success if it’s so hard to warehouse that and it’s a different market. And then separately, one of the advantages of this one-page strategic plan is from a marketing point of view, getting really clear about what’s in and what’s out, both in the goals you’re trying to achieve and the markets you’re trying to serve and the product lines you’re carrying. Because I think in business, especially as we move down into the organization, it’s very hard for people to say no. And the idea of the one-page plan is it gets crystal clear for everyone in the organization, like right down to the shipping dock or whatever you want to call the farthest away from the CEO position. Make it easy for them to say no or yes and to know what’s in and what’s out. Because that’s actually how we make a high-performing business, we make it easy to say yes to the right things and then no to all the other things that don’t make sense. And that’s part of grasping and getting really, really clear on these things, which is the one-page plan is a tool to help you get clear on that.
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Shannon Latham (00:55:50):
I’ll give you a real case scenario, and again, I know I sound like I’m probably pitching marketing, I guess, constantly because it’s part of our business. We do several things. Well, it’s what you do and you’re good at it. I’m going to pitch it if nothing else and just ask the audience to forgive me, if nothing else, to say that, hey, we’ve earned the right to have the platform, so maybe forgive me for that. So this is something that we’ve learned and we’ve had to educate a lot of our consumers over what we sell. Not because they’re not smart, not because they’re not intelligent people. They might even be better marketers than us if they ever got into our space. It’s because this isn’t what they’ve spent their life doing or what they spend their every day doing. They build sheds. I always tell them if we went out and had a shed-building competition, just imagine I could put together 80% of what a shed might look like, but that doesn’t mean that I can, I think I might have lost you.
(00:56:47):
Oh, there you are, you’re back. I might be able to build 80% of what a shed looks like, but it’s really going to be that extra 20% that’s going to tell all the difference, and it may really tell a big difference if it falls apart. “I didn’t build the foundation” or “I didn’t pick something,” and so the customer’s really going to know that, that’s how important that 20% was. It’s the same way with marketing. You can do 80% of what we do. Where we set ourselves apart as specialists, it’s that 20%, and then it’s working with multiple people in the industry. We can pull on experiences in Utah and Florida and New York and we can say, “Hey, we can use all that that we’ve learned in this industry to your benefit without having to talk about the specific details of our client in Utah or New York or Miami. We can use our experience.”
David Greer (00:57:36):
It’s the knowledge base you’re able to build because you have such a diverse customer base, and your existing and future customers get to benefit from that.
Shannon Latham (00:57:46):
That’s right.
David Greer (00:57:47):
They get to draw from a much, much bigger knowledge base and practical experience of what works and what doesn’t work that you’ve built just by the experience of helping so many people in so many different areas.
Shannon Latham (00:57:59):
Now, here’s what we’ve experienced through that process. Recently, I go back to my shed-selling days. I had a guy come in one day and he said, sniffing around the building, he said, “They used formaldehyde in this building.” I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know if they use formaldehyde in the products at all. I’ll be honest with you. That’s a question I never thought I would get.” Right? Seemed very, yeah, yeah. So anyway, but I researched it because I did my due diligence. I wanted to know, and I was like, “I hope I don’t get caught off guard by that anymore.” And turns out that the formaldehyde that’s used in it is so little that the government doesn’t even require them to list it as being used. But for him, he was like, “I can smell it so I won’t buy it as long as it’s got formaldehyde, whatever.”
(00:58:46):
Then the problem was whenever I was selling, I became such a product specialist that I couldn’t wait to tell everybody everything that I knew about the product. So when they came in, they would ask a question that I would never give them an answer to. Like, oh, they might ask a question that’s very, very generic. “Well, how are they constructed? Is this one considered a good building or is that one a good building? What’s the difference in them? I’m not a construction expert, so I don’t really know. Am I paying way more for that? Is this one way better?” So then all of a sudden I would launch into all of this knowledge that I had. Right? “Well, this is built 16 inches on center, which is built like a house, and all that basically means is this. If you’re going to finish it out, you put some insulation in there, you can get that R-13 with sixteens. It’s going to be a little cheaper than your R-19 or whatever on the 24-inch on centers. And I’ve got double top plates, and by the way, this thing does not have formaldehyde in it.” And they’re just like, “Okay.”
(00:59:50):
And we’ve done this in marketing because what we’ve wanted to do is we’ve wanted to say, “Here’s this comprehensive picture of what we offer. We do all these things. All these things.” And what you’re going to find is if the leg bone’s connected to the thigh bone, right? If you use Service A, it’s a matter of time before you’re going to need Service B, and it’s a matter of time before you’re going to need Service C. “So let us just quote you on all the things we do because you’re going to need them.” And what we’ve done is we’ve failed to lead the horse to water and let them drink on their own. Blow them away with Service A so that it creates a problem and a need for Service B and Service C.
(01:00:37):
And this is one of the best examples I can give you of what we’ve learned, I feel like in the last six months. Instead of trying to go all in and tell everybody everything and prove that we are who we are, we’ve almost kind of scaled back a little bit, David, and said like, “Well, let’s help you in what you need help with and let’s blow your mind to the point to where you need another solution of something that we offer.” Again, sounds like a marketing pitch here, but it’s a real big example.
David Greer (01:01:08):
Yeah. Let me go back to my running Robelle and being in the software industry. By the time I was 24 or 25, I was probably giving 80% of the trade show demonstrations, especially of our integrated software development environment. Someone would come to the booth and I would ask them questions for probably five minutes. “What programming language do you use? How many people? What’s the approval process for new versions?” Like, your listeners, it doesn’t necessarily relate. They’re not in the software business, but I asked these very specific questions. And we had this horizontal tool that had hundreds of features, and then I’d step up to the terminal. We didn’t have computers, we had terminals back then, and I would show them maybe 5% of the product. But I would show them the exact 5% that exactly matched their environment. And they felt seen, they felt heard, and they felt that they had a solution that was very uniquely tailored just for them. And I get back to early in the conversation, talk about pain, pain point, and pain pill. It’s that digging down to find out that one, two, three, four things that are the most important to them, and then just showing that part of the product line. It absolutely satisfies that, right?
(01:02:29):
It’s probably still only 5% of your product line or features, but it’s the piece that really matters to them.
Shannon Latham (01:02:40):
Right. And really listening to them and their questions that they’re asking, those are the things that they’re seeking to solve anyway. Just like with my formaldehyde experience, I told 30 customers after that we didn’t have formaldehyde, and 30 customers probably walked out of there going, “What the heck is he talking about? I didn’t even need to know or didn’t even care about formaldehyde.”
David Greer (01:03:01):
Or even you mentioned, yeah, a prospect comes in and says, “What’s the difference between Shed A and Shed B?” I’d first be tempted “Why are you asking the question?” or “What’s important to you? Is it price? Is it construction quality? What is really important to you in the shed that you want to get? And then I’ll be better able to tell you what the differences are between some of the sheds, but let me understand better your point of view.” That’s right. Because oftentimes the best way to give the answer is to actually ask a question first until you, yeah, I’m not trying to avoid your question, but I feel like I can give you a better answer if I understood better why you want the shed and what you’re going to do with it and where it’s going to be in the yard. And if you could tell me a bit more about that, I’ll be much better able to answer your other question.
Shannon Latham (01:03:52):
We like to use a term called “conditional logic.” Based off of your answer, it conditions the logical response that I should have to take you down the path based off of your question. So I could be giving you information from formaldehyde as an example. It’s not necessary, needed, or even part of the conversation, but because of my previous experience “Oh no, I didn’t get the sale because of this. I want to make sure they know” but they’re not asking that question. And we’ve really started to fine-tune different processes to just be better, to be sharper about those things. And coaching has helped me with that. Seeking coaching and yeah, it’s because you identify problems that you don’t see. One of my favorite books, it’s over here. Well, I say it’s over here. I may have to edit this out. I’m struggling right now, Never Split the Difference.
(01:04:52):
And one of the things that the author talks about in that, he created a program called the Black Swan Group, and the purpose of the Black Swan Group is to imagine looking out into a lake and there’s a hundred swans. And as those hundred swans look at each other, they see the same things, but there’s one black swan in the middle of the hundred white swans. Well, guess what? All the attention gets focused on the black swan, but as the black swan looks out, it just sees other swans and figures it’s just like them. Everyone can see the obvious thing. For instance, if you have a communication issue, everyone can see it sometimes. But if you have a rudeness issue, everyone else sees and experiences it except for you. And you know what? If you have a rudeness issue, someone telling you you’re rude doesn’t go over very well, right?
(01:05:47):
Because you’re probably going to be rude in your response. But these are stepping stones to growth no matter what it is. If it’s a time issue, attention, lack of customer service, maybe it’s your product. I’ve had guys contact me and say, “With our advertising, half our product sold this year was because we advertised on your program.” I’ve had other guys who say, “I never got a call from anybody ever.” And I’m like, “Okay, well, how do I break this process down? Is it your sales pitch? Is it your product?” I mean, there’s a lot of things I can’t control. I can get in front of the same people who had success over here in this area, but I can’t make people buy anything over here. “Maybe your position in the industry is kind of maybe not one that, maybe it’s not too good. Let’s just take the growth off.”
David Greer (01:06:46):
And you have a branding problem that you need to go solve first, which is to change your perception out in the community. Yeah, that entrepreneur, that’s part of why I’m a coach, just because it is virtually impossible to see the problems in front of us. I call it “your nose is pressed so hard into the bark of the tree that it feels very uncomfortable, but you don’t even know what tree you’re pressing your nose into, let alone what forest you might be standing in.” And maybe I could help you take a step or two back and see a little bit more.
Shannon Latham (01:07:20):
I think it’s great. Somehow we’ve managed to get 60 minutes in here instead of 45, but that’s because you’re a great conversationalist and I want to make sure people know, again, you can go to our newsletter, you can click on the website, you can find out more about Coach David. He is offering up a free hour for anybody who contacts him for a discovery call to see if maybe more business exists between the two of you. Maybe it doesn’t, but a conversation never hurt anybody.
David Greer (01:07:47):
I promise you’ll have one idea to accelerate your business in the next 90 days after an hour with me. Promise.
Shannon Latham (01:07:54):
Excellent. Excellent. Any final thoughts that you want to give before we end here today? David, I’ve enjoyed this conversation thoroughly, sir.
David Greer (01:08:03):
I got one final, I got one final thought. Have fun. If you’re not having fun running your business, why bother? If you are not bouncing out of bed in the morning, looking forward to going to your business and looking after your customers, something needs to change.
Shannon Latham (01:08:22):
Absolutely.
David Greer (01:08:23):
That’s really my final thought. I think that’s what running the business, businesses are brick and mortar, they’re really darn hard, and make sure you’re having fun while you’re building them.
Shannon Latham (01:08:38):
Great advice. Couldn’t have asked for anything better. Thank you so much for being on the show today, David. I hope people take advantage of your one-hour offer there, and I certainly encourage them to check out the Shed Geek podcast newsletter, and you guys make sure you go and join the private group Shed Sales Professionals. We’ve got a lot of cool conversations and things like that happening on there. If you ever have any questions for us, feel free to contact us. If you want to be on the show, feel free to contact us. No story is a story we’re not interested in telling. Even if you compete with us, come on, tell us about your product, advertise it. We can’t serve everybody anyway, so feel free to give us a call. We want to see others win. We believe in win-win. So thank you, David, so much for being on the show.
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