I join Dupe Witherick on her Thrive Alcohol-Free Podcast. We talk about how it feels for me to be 15 years sober, sailing, 12 step recovery, coaching, morning rituals, vulnerability, fears, giving yourself permission to rest and of course I share on what thriving alcohol free means to me. We encourage listeners to seek support and connect with others who understand their experiences. Give the podcast a listen.
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/thrive-alcohol-free/id1707202708?i=1000657255012
Transcript
Dupe (00:00:00):
Hi, and welcome to the Thrive Alcohol-Free podcast, Dupe Alcohol-Free Well Being and Transformational Coach. And the bestselling author of a Cocktail of Clarity, How to Ditch Drinking, Embody a Joyful New Identity and Thrive Alcohol Free. This podcast will show you that being alcohol free is not what the traditional narrative says. And even though alcohol is so ingrained in our society that it is okay to give yourself permission to stop drinking if you want to, and you do not have to wait until you hit rock bottom. It’s certainly not boring. And I believe ditching drinking is just the start to living an extraordinary life by getting rid of this one thing. It allows the doors to open to endless possibilities and opportunities. Each week we will have guests on who are at various stages of the alcohol-free journey from those who are curious to those who have been alcohol-free for years. We will also have experts on talking about different topics relating to alcohol and beyond. Through these conversations, you’ll discover what it means to thrive free. Enjoy.
(00:01:18):
Hi, and welcome to the latest episode of the Thrive Alcohol Free podcast. I’m Dupe your host and I’m delighted you are here listening. I hope you’ve had a lovely long weekend. And it’s really funny because long weekends always remind me of when I was drinking and there’d always inevitably be barbecues and excuses. It would be a sunny day generally, not that we had one here, but generally it’s a sunny day and it’s one of those excuses to have another drink. And so now that I don’t drink, I love the alcohol free option. So if you’ve maybe had a long weekend and you are thinking, oh, I shouldn’t have drunk so much, and you are still suffering even though it’s Thursday now, or you are maybe thinking, I felt I stopped drinking but felt a bit deprived this weekend because I wasn’t drinking, then certainly check out alcohol free drinks because that’s definitely an option.
(00:02:14):
And I have my mocktail recipes ideal for summer. So if you would like to grab those, I’ll put that in the show notes. And you can be inspired for the summer so you have some good drinks to make. And obviously there are lots of alcohol free options. Go and explore some different options. So the other thing on Monday, it was our doggies birthday Bentley, our black Labrador. It was his seventh birthday and it just made me reflect about milestones and birthdays and how important I think it is to celebrate milestones on this alcohol free journey because a part of our programming when we stop drinking, we’ve so many references in our subconscious that we automatically reach for a drink when it’s sunny or when it’s a party or when it’s a wedding or when we go on holiday. And that’s the automatic response. And by noting the good things that happen along the way while you are alcohol free, but also then recognizing the milestones and celebrating and reflecting on what’s good or what’s been good since you stopped drinking for X amount of time and what’s happened that really starts to change the way you think about alcohol and it becomes second nature that you don’t need alcohol to have fun to live, to just be.
(00:03:39):
I certainly recommend thinking about either tracking, at least in the early days, tracking your days. It’s not something I really do now, but every now and again I’ll have a look. But yeah, if that’s something you are interested in your thinking, well, how can I make this stick a bit more then doing that is a really good way of doing it. I also have a couple of fun things coming up. I’m really excited for my program, which is starting next week, and there is still time to sign up. Doors closed today, 1st of June at 6:00 PM and you have the opportunity to join a cocktail of Clarity Group Coaching Program, which is a five week program. Plus you get three modules with 14 lessons where we look at how to take a break from alcohol and enjoy it. So if you have been thinking recently that you are maybe feeling a little bit anxious more regularly, you are struggling to moderate, you’d like to feel more present, you’ve tried to take a break before and not enjoyed it, you’re not where you want to be in your career or deep down that life could be better without it.
(00:04:56):
And if you’ve been questioning whether alcohol has been holding you back in some way and you’d like to make alcohol insignificant in your life, then this program is absolutely for you. I am delighted to be hosting it and be your coach on it. And I really hope it’s going to empower you on your journey towards a new mindset where you can make choices when it comes to alcohol. So it’s going to really help you discover how to see alcohol in a different light, how to build an alcohol-free toolkit, how to navigate those alcohol-free firsts, find passions, hobby and hobbies, incorporate everyday self-care manage and process your emotions and discover what you really want in life. So if you’re looking to make alcohol insignificant in life, if you want to be happier, if you want to feel less anxious, have more energy, be more present, improve your health experience, greater clarity, and you want to feel authentically you, then this is the place for you.
(00:05:58):
And as I said, it’s a five week program. So if you have been reflecting on your relationship with alcohol and want guidance on how to change the way you think about alcohol, then I would love you to sign up today. And so I’ll leave all the information in the show notes and the doors close on Saturday. And the reason it’s Saturday is because that will be 1300 days for me being alcohol free. And as many of you know, I took a 21 day break from alcohol. So that was my initial plan, and along the way I learned a lot of tools and tips and was part of community and various things which I’ve really thought about and incorporated within my Thrive AF method, which is what this program is based on. I’d love it if you are looking to transform your relationship with alcohol and change your life, then join today.
(00:06:57):
And then the second thing that I have, which is coming up next week, is my friend Anna Kay Morris, who was on the podcast a couple of weeks ago. She is hosting a summer fun summit and I am going to be part of that. So the summit is from next week, as I said, from the third to the 6th of June. I’ll be on Tuesday and there will be nine other talking about love, creativity, travel style books, mocktails and beyond to help you create a summer of fun. So if you are looking for that, it’s absolutely free. You can join that. I will leave the details for that in the show notes and can’t wait to be part of it. So thank you Anna, for inviting me on to be part of that. Okay, so today’s guest is David J. Greer, an entrepreneurial coach, author and facilitator. He’s the catalyst who gets you to fully live your dreams now, spends one hour reading his book, wind in Your Sails, attend a one hour talk with him, or get one hour of one-to-one coaching, and you will have three concrete action items that will shift and accelerate your business within 90 days.
(00:08:21):
David specializes in working with entrepreneurs who are challenged with alcoholism or addiction. He and his wife Karalee are committed to each other and their three children spending time supporting them in the many and varied activities they’re involved in. They live in Vancouver, Canada. I’m delighted to have David on. It is a great conversation. So without further ado, here is the conversation with David. So welcome David to the Thrive Alcohol Free Podcast. How are you today?
David (00:08:56):
I am doing wonderful and thrilled to be here with you today.
Dupe (00:09:01):
It’s so great to have you. So for those who don’t know you, maybe you want to give a brief introduction of who you are, what you do, and why you are on the Thrive Alcohol Free podcast.
David (00:09:13):
Sure. So professionally, I am a 40 plus year entrepreneur and for almost the last decade I’ve been an entrepreneurial coach and I have been sober for a little over 15 years. And about three years ago, I made the decision to come out publicly as a recovering alcoholic and to specialize in helping entrepreneurs who could or might be struggling with alcoholism and or addiction. That’s the professional side. On the personal side, I’m being just celebrated my 42nd anniversary.
Dupe (00:09:53):
Congratulations.
David (00:09:56):
And we have three kids, we have two grandkids, love to travel. I just came back from 12 days away on my sailboat. Sailing is a really big part of my story and my life.
Dupe (00:10:07):
I see the pictures in the background, they look fabulous
David (00:10:11):
And going on adventures. So that’s a little bit about my personal life.
Dupe (00:10:16):
Wonderful, wonderful. I suppose maybe we start, I’m fascinated, you said you only came out three years ago, and so what made you make that decision?
David (00:10:32):
I’m not certain what was the ultimate catalyst, but part of my story and how I got into sobriety is through an amazing coach. And then after working with that coach for nine years, I got another coach, my current coach, Nan O’Connor, who I just had a call with yesterday and Nan reflected back to me on multiple coaching calls, how pure my energy was anytime I was talking about my recovery and my journey into recovery. And she just kept kind of nudging me to share more of my experience, strength, and hope publicly. So anyways, I resisted that for a few years as sometimes these things do. And yeah, then anyways, I guess it was around my 12 year anniversary of being sober that I published a video. I have a whole bunch of videos on my YouTube channel talking about recovery, talking about what it’s like to be an entrepreneur in recovery. I also have lots of videos on business, high growth businesses, culture, people strategy, the nuts and bolts of what I do as a professional coach. But overlaid with this, I have this entrepreneurial experience of what it’s like to be a practicing alcoholic and running a business and also looking around. I can’t find, or I’ve struggled to find other business coaches who specialize in this area.
Dupe (00:11:56):
Yeah, it’s definitely a niche and I think we’ve all got so many layers, haven’t we, of us and so many different things that we came through that we can then.
David (00:12:06):
And I’ve done a lot of research trying find out our entrepreneurs more likely to be alcoholic, and there isn’t any such research or I haven’t been able to find it. But if we just say according to the experts in the US and Canada, roughly 10% of the population are alcoholics. So even if 10% of entrepreneurs are alcoholic, that’s a lot of entrepreneurs. It’s just 10% of the population is a lot of people. I know they’re out there and in some cases being on a podcast like this has got me clients who are in recovery and on our coaching calls, it gives another layer that we can talk about because especially those that share my experience in 12 step recovery. I can say, what step would you apply to this business problem? Because often there is one that applies and it causes the client to see things in a different or new perspective.
Dupe (00:13:02):
Yeah. So can I ask how you got to the point where you decided enough was enough and you knew you had to stop?
David (00:13:13):
Sure.
Dupe (00:13:15):
15 years ago. I know it was a long time ago, but I’d love to hear
David (00:13:18):
Actually the 15. I find it shocking to be 15 years sober. I find it absolutely shocking. I sometimes still feel like I’m a few months or maybe a year or two, and especially turning 15 has really caused me to go back and really re-experience and be aware of what it was like when I came in. Just being something about this is just being a very, very important and poignant milestone for me.
Dupe (00:13:48):
I can imagine.
David (00:13:49):
And I do not know how it’s possible. I mean I do, but emotionally I don’t in some ways. But let’s talk about the journey in …
Dupe (00:13:58):
Before we do. I’m fascinated when you say that. I know we all think time’s going so quickly and we all still talk about covid, but that was actually four and a half years ago and that’s shocking. But do you wonder what the reason is that you think the 15 years just don’t feel like 15 years?
David (00:14:15):
I think 15 in my mind is such a significant period of time, and yet it feels like such a short time. And as I often tell people, getting sober is the single biggest achievement of my life. Let’s be clear. But I do remember every single morning I have to achieve again the single biggest achievement of my life. And for 15 years I’ve not taken this for granted. And it’s really important to me that I stay focused on that because I know I have another drunk in me. There’s no question about that. I had a recent nightmare that brought it all back.
Dupe (00:14:54):
They’re never good, are they? You wake up in a cold sweat, yes.
David (00:14:57):
Thinking you picked up a drink. Exactly. But I don’t know if I have another recovery in me and I don’t want to take the risk. And I think my drinking style was to be isolating and drugs were not part of my story. But now what I’ve learned in recovery and heard from other people’s stories, I think my alcoholic brain, if I went back out, would decide that trying some drugs to go with the alcohol to make it even better would probably be there. And I’d probably end up with some fentanyl laced drug and isolating using, and that would be it. I really think the path to drinking to me would be an early death. And so I really need to continue every day to see alcohol as a poison for me. So what does it have to do with 15? I don’t know. I mean, it’s this absolutely crystal clear focus that I’ve had for 15 years, whatever it is, it’s 5,600 days or something, I guess it’s a lot of days, but I’ve never lost my focus. When I coach entrepreneurs, one of the biggest struggles in business is to make the number one thing be the number one thing. And especially entrepreneurs who tend to wander and we all suffer terribly from red shiny ball syndrome, oh, look over there, isn’t that bright, shiny? Let’s go look at that. And I have a gift every single day. I know what the number one thing is and I need to make the number one thing be the number one thing every day. And in some ways, that’s really a gift.
Dupe (00:16:27):
And so you still find yourself thinking about it, or is it just you are thinking about the fact that you know can’t do it?
David (00:16:38):
It is just the practice too, of the things living talk. So sitting in my cushion, writing in my journal, doing a set of morning prayers, asking for power greater than myself to keep me sober today, just this ritual routine. And I just really don’t break it. I mean, partly because if I do my morning prayers, I usually have a better day. So in a lot of ways, even though there’s sometimes that little bit of resistance, oh, do I have to do this again? Well, yes you do, and your life will be better if you do. So let’s just get on with it.
Dupe (00:17:09):
Yeah, and they’re just good morning rituals to have, aren’t they, really?
David (00:17:14):
Yeah. Whether you’re alcoholic or not. Exactly.
Dupe (00:17:16):
Yeah,
David (00:17:17):
Exactly. Precisely. Yeah, exactly.
Dupe (00:17:20):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so alright, so let’s go back. So what led you to the 15 years ago?
David (00:17:29):
So yeah, I have 20 years as a daily drinker being in complete denial. And then I got to a point of being sick and tired of being sick and tired. But I got to back that up a little bit. So when I was in university getting my computer science degree, I worked with a consultant who’d founded a software company. And before I graduated, I joined that software company as the first employee after the founders.
(00:17:57):
And I liked the place, I stayed 20 years and built it into a global powerhouse. And then I only had one major disagreement and I bought out one of the founders 10 years in and then 20 years in the other founder and I had a really major disagreement about the future of the company and the strategic direction to take. And we ended up solving that by him buying me out quite unexpectedly. I won’t get into all the details and it was very emotional and a lot of ugly email messages, let’s put it that way. I’m on the street in 2001, not noticing the dotcom meltdown, kind of busy chasing deals that when someone smarter than me said, “David, your kids will never be 11, nine and five again.” And I literally, if you can imagine a light bulb going off over my head. It was literally the aha moment. And so my wife and I hatched a plan where we commissioned a sailboat in the south of France and we homeschooled our three children while sailing more than 5,000 miles in the Mediterranean for two years.
Dupe (00:18:59):
Wow. What an amazing experience. Your children. That is fantastic. That’ll always have that memory
David (00:19:06):
And what a great place to be an alcoholic.
Dupe (00:19:10):
Yes. Didn’t think of that one,
David (00:19:12):
Right? But a couple of things happened. One was I didn’t realize it only after I got sober, I even realized any of these I think. But we did over 20 overnight passages where you travel for 24, 36, 48, 72 hours nonstop.
(00:19:31):
And I never drank during those passages and I didn’t even have to think about not drinking, just was like when the lives of my family were totally at stake, I could actually put down the drink. I also had an amazing experience on our second overnight passage. We were crossing from the Balearic Islands to Corsica across the western Mediterranean Sea. And my son, who was 10 at the time, he and I came on watch about two in the morning and it was a high pressure system, so we were actually motoring because there wasn’t any wind and it was perfectly clear. And as far as the eye could see was the Milky Way above us. And my son and I kept mistaking stars on the horizon for the lights of ships. It was literally that bright and we were a long ways away from any manmade light source.
(00:20:25):
So you really get to see, and I really think that was the universe touching me and later I think opening up possibilities to me. I had those experiences. I came back and I did three years of angel investing and working for options and being on boards of directors. And then I finally, I took a young CEO to this training session in this business framework that I’d heard a lot about, but I didn’t know a lot about. And it turns out I later would specialize in that particular framework, but that’s not the important part of the story. In the back of the room were two business coaches and I talked to both of them, but one of them made me more uncomfortable than I had been since I’d left Robelle, the company that I’d been with for 20 years. And I had tears in the corner of my eyes after a five minute conversation, and I think he said something like, there’s a hundred people in this room and they all need your help.
(00:21:18):
And I’d been trying to find people I could help for three, four years and I couldn’t find anyone that was interested in working with me. And I didn’t realize until that moment how unfulfilled I was. And so I took his business card and I had it next to my phone and probably once a week for the next three weeks I thought about calling coach Kevin and the phone weighed at least 10,000 pounds and three weeks on, Kevin called me, said “Hi, we met at the Verne Harnish event. Do you remember me?” I said, yes, my brain’s going. I haven’t thought about much else in the last three weeks. But yes, I remember you tell him that obviously, obviously. Anyways, I hired him as my coach on my 50th birthday. We had our first coaching session, which at that time for Kevin, your opening coaching session was two eight hour days.
(00:22:08):
He’s my kind of guy, you’re all in or you’re all out. There’s no halfway in this. I worked with Kevin for nine years, but after 18 months we had kind of cleared all the clutter off the table and reestablished worked on some of the things that were blocking me from being appealing to work with, and we kind of cleared all the clutter off the table. And then the only thing left was the elephant in the room, which Kevin knew nothing about. And on January 26, 2009, so my deal with Kevin was the day before or the night before we had a coaching call, I’d sent him an email message with the successes I’d had since our last call and a topic for our coaching call. And I had my last beer, which that day I probably had at least a dozen and I’d carefully made sure there was no more in the house.
(00:23:02):
At about 10 o’clock at night, I sent him an email and I said, the topic for our call tomorrow is my drinking. And the next day we had our coaching call and we talked about my drinking and I think the universe put Kevin in my path so I could get sober. And he was not an alcoholic, but just through some of his life experiences, he interacted with people that were very active in a 12 step recovery. He coached me to go to my first 12 step meeting. So that was a Tuesday, January 27, 2009, and I committed to go to a meeting by that Friday. And then being the overachiever that I am, I knew I had a networking event, a technology event to downtown and a presentation that ran from five to eight. I went online and I looked for meetings that night and lo and behold, at 8:30 there would be a meeting, a quarter of a block off the main road that I would be driving on the way to my home.
(00:24:01):
And so I wrote down the details and I went to that meeting and walked into 12 step recovery and stood at the back of the room as one does at your first meeting? And a couple of young ladies came out and were very kind and greeted me and welcomed me and I, I didn’t sit in the back row, but I sat on the very edge of one row so I could run away if I needed to. And at that time, in that meetings, three quarters, the way they asked, is there anyone new to the program? I’d like to stand and introduce themselves. And I sat on my hands for a good 20 seconds, but the chairperson that night waited 30. And at the last second I stood up and said, “I’m David, I’m an alcoholic.” And I think that was the first time I admitted my truth.
(00:24:49):
I didn’t really understand or know I think what I was really admitting to, but I was speaking my truth. It turns out and after 20 years of denial, it was a watershed moment and a few weeks later I made that my home group. And earlier this year I took my 15 year cake at that same home group. It’s being my home group for the whole 15 years. And there was three people at my 15 year cake who were there the night I came in and remember what I was like the night I came in, there’s an accountability. There is a, you don’t want to forget for me, I never want to forget what it was like to come in because I got to remember that’s what it’s like if I ever pick up a drink. Well actually, except it’d be worse.
(00:25:38):
But literally I got just totally sick and tired of being sick and tired and being just literally in slavery to alcoholism. And I kept crossing the red lines. I’ll never drink in the car, I’ll never drink in the car while it’s moving. I’ll never have more than one drink in the car. And I’d find myself at some event downtown and on the way home rather than go home and be with my wife and three lovely children, I’d buy a six pack and go to the beach and make sure I had three. I had started the start of a buzz before I got home. I mean it makes total sense. It’s an alcoholic. I mean it’s crazy to anyone who’s not an alcoholic. Yeah, I mean it’s a mental illness. It’s alcohol use disorder. And I’d like your listeners to remember that it’s not a moral failing. You are beholden to the most powerful drug on the planet. It just happens to be legal and it happens to be incredibly socialized.
Dupe (00:26:39):
I mean ultimately it’s a highly addictive substance. So regardless of how much you are drinking and how fine you think you are, now that it’s a slippery slope and at any point, anybody, regardless of where they’re from and what they do, and all of that could be subject to becoming addicted to it because it’s an addictive substance.
David (00:27:02):
I tell people, so when I came in I had a nice house and two cars and three kids and was a very successful entrepreneur, was very successful in life, had a lot of achievements. Fifteen years later I’ve still got a nice house, got two cars, I have three kids, but now I have two grandkids. So you might say on the outside it doesn’t. And I have even more achievements. I’ve now sailed across the Atlantic Ocean, done a bunch of things that I wanted to do that I could only do once I got sober dreams that I had for many years, but I could never do them. I’d never imagined doing them sober. But the person on the inside is a completely different person. The change is inside, not outside. And that’s really a testament to the work and the program and outside the program, I’ve done five years of therapy work and after I got sober, it triggered a bunch of things with my spouse. I like to say in the first 30 years we didn’t do as much work on our relationship as we have in the last dozen. And that included eight years of relationship counseling with four different counselors, each of who was perfect for the time at the stage we were at
(00:28:20):
And was being a big part of that personal growth that needed to happen. So codependency is one of my other big isms and I took a lot to work past that.
Dupe (00:28:38):
It is interesting how ultimately we all are trying to either create a feeling or running away from a feeling when we go for a drink and have a drink effectively what we’re trying to do.
David (00:28:52):
Exactly.
Dupe (00:28:53):
And so you are numbing things or you are trying to avoid emotions. And so it’s no wonder that you then really do need to process those emotions, manage those emotions, work through them, and then better understand yourself as a person. And I do think you are absolutely right when you say it’s on the inside because on the outside it looks the same to a lot
David (00:29:17):
Of people. Yes. I mean my coach and I yesterday were doing some deep work. I have this incredibly powerful taskmaster spirit. It has let me achieve an enormous amount in my life and it’s baked very, very, very deep into my psyche. I was just out on my sailboat and it was like taking some days where I literally did nothing where I took a three hour rest snap in the afternoon, I’m sitting in the cockpit trying to read a sailing magazine and it’s perfectly still, and I’m hearing the birds and my taskmaster spirits telling me I’m unworthy. You haven’t achieved enough today. And that was probably the first time I really sensed into that feeling of unworthiness. So it’s taking 15 years of work to get to the point where I can be, and I made a very conscious decision to just be with it and the discomfort and no TMS, we are not going to do anything right now. I’m going to keep drinking my tea and reading my magazine and listening to the things and being aware and present to what’s going on around me. And 30 seconds later it’s like TMS is trying to get me off my seat and go to do something. It’s very irritating. But this is what makes me an incredibly driven person. And sometimes I do get a lot done. I’ll get more done in a day than a lot of people get done in a week. And that is a superpower and it can really, really work against me. Where’s my task best or spirit in rest and recovery and building resiliency, it’s an equally valid task, right? Absolutely.
(00:31:07):
But I haven’t convinced TMS of that yet. Naming my taskmaster spirit, which I did with the therapist, was actually a very powerful moment. We say that in coaching, if you can name it, you can tame it. And so identifying that and being able to name it. And I also have a lot of my inner child self are represented by various sea creatures. So my TMS is represented by an octopus, partly because with eight arms, my octopus can get me to do a lot of things. It can move a lot of things all at once.
Dupe (00:31:40):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that’s absolutely fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. Worthiness is a key thing and it is amazing how we feel unworthy because of certain things and how few people actually appreciate that resting is a task. It is actually something that we all need to do and we all deserve to do. And just because we are resting, it doesn’t mean we are not doing or being, we are fundamentally doing that. But it’s a struggle for a lot of people to do that,
David (00:32:20):
Especially because I coach around this model from my previous coach, coach Kevin and his book Your Oxygen Mask First. We coach around three aspects of life. One is career, finances, business. So that’s kind of the entrepreneurial part for the most of my clients who I work with and then life family and the people I work with are super passionate generally about both of those. And what happens though is they’re so passionate, put so much energy into that they literally squeeze themselves out in the middle. So Kevin asked us to put this middle piece in, which is self, so career, finances, business, life, family relationships, but self. And it’s not that you necessarily need rest going on a big sailing adventure, which is not particularly restful, but it can be very restorative to me. It’s something that I just do for myself. Like my wife, “I lived with you in a sailboat in the Mediterranean for two years. I don’t need another sailing adventure. I’ll go wander around the Gulf Islands with you. But if you want a big adventure, you go do it and more power to you Sailing.”
Dupe (00:33:29):
Sailing is hard work. It’s hard. Yeah.
David (00:33:34):
But it’s also this rest piece and I coach around people actually setting goals for themselves and rebuilding their resiliency equal to the goals for their life and relationships and for their business. This is the part that we miss out on. And when we get too busy, it’s usually the part we sacrifice. And the point is being selfish versus being serving. If you keep serving your business and your life and your relationships, at some point there’ll be nothing of you left. At some point you have to be selfish, like you be selfish so you can be serving.
(00:34:10):
It has to stay in balance. And so the mistake, a lot of us, I think super, I’m kind of one of those uber high performers, high energy people. So then I just burn myself out. I mean, eventually the universe clobbers me over the head and makes me extremely sick or somehow takes me out of the game because I’m not looking after myself. So now I’m much more proactive. I just spend more time sailing. And if my wife doesn’t want to come, that’s okay. I got everything set up. I spent the last 13 days solo sailing, right? It wasn’t a huge trip, but still probably a hundred twenty five, a hundred forty miles in various segments around in some of my favorite places. And just hanging out with myself and one of the little islands in the Gulf Islands, I went to a great meeting last week. I go look for a recovery anytime I travel. In fact, travel and recovery has been a really special something I really enjoy.
Dupe (00:35:13):
And I imagine you meet lots of different people as well when you travel and go to the
David (00:35:17):
Meetings or just the experience you go to. I went to a meeting in India when we were there a few years ago, and all of the visitors spoke English, but the rest spoke Hindu. But you kept hearing parts of the big book of my 12 step recovery program like said in English, “higher power.”
Dupe (00:35:39):
They were so they couldn’t convert to the local languages.
David (00:35:41):
You couldn’t understand 90% of the conversation, these little bits that came out and if nothing else is 90 minute meeting. So it just forced me to be present and just be there and just to be in the experience.
Dupe (00:36:00):
Yeah, I absolutely agree. Self-care is a key piece of what I coach on. And self-care is not selfish and it is really important that you, it’s funny, I was speaking to someone the other day about, so I was coaching them and they were talking about they just really struggle to put their oxygen mask on first. And they think that, and it’s common with lots of people, I think we all think we need to keep going. We need to do, we need to serve, we need to make sure everyone else is fine and come hell or high water, that’s what we’re going to do and then we forget.
David (00:36:41):
Yeah. And there’s a belief system certainly that I’ve had that looking after myself is selfish and being selfish is bad.
(00:36:50):
So some of my coaching is like if you’re not selfish then you can’t be there for other people. I have to put my program of recovery first because if I’m not sober, all the bets are off. I can’t be there for everyone else or I’ll drive drunk or just it’ll be bad. I still sometimes are in conflict with my significant other, but it’s like I need to go to a meeting right now and I’m going to go to a meeting and we didn’t have anything else planned. And that’s what I’m going to do because what I need right now to look after myself and my recovery.
Dupe (00:37:27):
And would you say I’ve not done it so I don’t know very much about it. And so this is a fascinating conversation for me. So thank you for sharing. Would you say that the meetings are your key way of staying the path or would you say, I know you talked about therapy and other coaching and other things,
David (00:37:47):
But even meetings are not my whole 12 step recovery. They’re a very important part of my 12 step recovery, working the steps of 12 step recovery. I’ve done it, I don’t know, 6, 7, 8 times the big book way. I’m also for the last five years being a member of a adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families. And that’s been also a game changer for me. And I worked through the three workbooks that they have, including the newest one, which only came out a couple of years ago called the Loving Parent Guidebook. And interesting, my coach did the Loving Parent Guidebook just for her own personal growth and she found it incredibly useful even though she’s not a member of a ACA and I’ve heard of other people that have done that for inner child work. It’s a very powerful tool. Now for me, I’ve never successfully done any of this work except in small groups.
(00:38:40):
I do not get it going on my own. So part of what this 12 step recovery gives me is a small group of men want to get together and do the 12 steps, the big book way. We meet once a week for 15, 16 weeks, which is a fair commitment. And we meet once a week. We talk about what was hard. We don’t necessarily talk about the results, what we discovered in doing it, we talk about the process, what was hard, what was easy, or maybe some key insight about myself and that shared accountability, like showing up every week for each other, hearing about each other’s struggles. Oh, I’m not the only one that’s challenged by doing this step in that shared experience. Then the same in a CA, it’s not being gender specific, it’s being mixed groups, but it’s always been a small group of people who commit to a timeframe of some sort where they’re going to work through.
(00:39:33):
It can be quite small. It can be just two or three people. Sometimes I find bigger groups don’t work that much as well. I find better no more than seven or eight inevitably. There’s usually a couple that fall off that, of course. So that’s another piece. Another piece is about my third week of sobriety, fourth week of sobriety. I found this private men’s group that met every week and read from some of the 12 step literature called 12 steps and 12 Traditions. And that group gets together once a week and reads a chapter from that book and then goes around the table and everybody shares on, they share on what showed up in the reading for them and they share what’s going on in life for them. And I still attend even when I was out on my sailboat. We have a hybrid, so you can join by Zoom or in person.
(00:40:31):
So from my sailboat, I joined the last couple of Mondays. It happens to me on a Monday night. I joined by Zoom. I’ve been doing that for 15 and a quarter years. And that has been instrumental because especially the first year, but really all the way through I got to witness men being vulnerable. I got to witness men sharing their view of what a higher power looks like. It’s all over the place because that’s part of 12 step recovery is your higher power is whatever you make it to be. And we can each have our own private vision of it. And I don’t have to believe in yours and you don’t have to believe in mine, but the wisdom of the shared experience and hearing it. I remember probably a year into that group, someone shared and then they cried and after about 30 seconds it was like everything.
(00:41:28):
And this person was crying and there was a lot of us there that night. It was probably 16, 17 people, men around a table and everyone is quiet and I’m ready to jump up and pat the person on the shoulder and say it’s going to be okay. And I’ve actually figured out really what it was my discomfort of watching another person in their emotional self, especially in that quote negative emotion. And to witness 16, 17 men be still and hold space for a deep emotion. What a powerful experience. And I’ve had that multiple times of course since, and I’ve cried with that group subsequently and had them hold space with me. Nothing needs to change. I continue when I’m ready to continue. So you ask what do I get out of 12 step recovery? Some of these other things have actually been as are more powerful than the meetings themselves, like this creation of a space Now we use the lingo and the literature as our base to build on.
(00:42:42):
And because we have a common language to share about and some belief system that this 12 step recovery works for us. That’s why we keep coming back. And so we do share that in our own each individual unique way. But these have been as powerful as going to meetings. And I told her about the other day, I’ve probably been to 2000 meetings, so that’s 2000 times I have gone and heard people share. I’ve heard a lot of stuff and sometimes my wife or I’ll go to a play and it’s tackling a pretty difficult subject and I’ll go, boy, that play is just a piece of crap. I’ve been to enough meetings to know I’ve heard enough of what it’s really like that I don’t think that was a depiction of what it possibly could have really been like. Again, it is not my lived experience, but being able to hear others.
(00:43:42):
And my other experience about meetings that I often comment on when I am asked to share is I’m not certain. Another thing that we have, certainly in the western world in meetings when people are speaking, you can hear a pin drop and where else do we get that kind of honor for our story? Yes, a bunch of people in the audience, their minds might be racing, they might be thinking about something else, but they’re not speaking out, they’re not interrupting, they are just present to create this space, which every meeting does. I’ve been to a few where maybe it wasn’t there, but they’re handful out of a couple thousand where you have this incredibly honoring space for people share. I think it’s just an extraordinary human experience. You get it in a therapist’s office, it’s the same thing, but it’s just one-on-one. And I’m sure there are other group situations that you can be part of and are created, but it’s just the whole 12 step recovery movement.
(00:44:50):
This is its essence of what we do and honoring your story. And then in ACA, it’s like even stronger rules about no crosstalk, no after the meeting, no asking a person about their share without permission. Even now after meeting, I’ll say “A few thoughts came up for me when you shared, would you be okay with me sharing them?” And sometimes people say no. And I’m like, great. And it’s just really honoring their boundaries, honoring where they’re at. And when a society where people more often than not speak over each other, where we’re terrible listeners. A lot of my coaching is around building better listening skills as I had to take coach training and increase my listening skills. And I coach around listening is not having busy brain about your rebuttal and defensiveness about what the person before said. It’s being present to the person who’s speaking and fully present to what they’re sharing, whether you agree with it or not, but actually tearing it and being present to it and shutting down your busy brain. That’s true. Listening.
Dupe (00:46:04):
Yeah, absolutely. It’s active listening and it’s important, it’s key skill for coaches. But you’re right, it doesn’t come easy.
David (00:46:12):
It doesn’t come easy. I would argue it’s a key skill for life that more of us could probably benefit from.
Dupe (00:46:20):
Absolutely. There are a couple of things. I think it’s really important. I’m always fascinated because when I look at the alcohol free space, I stopped drinking over three and a half years ago now, and it didn’t feel like there. Obviously there weren’t that many people in the space three and a half years ago. There were some obviously, but it feels like recently it’s a growing movement that’s happening, which is wonderful to see. But I’m finding it’s more female driven. So when you talked about vulnerability of men, and obviously that’s really powerful and I’ve had a few men on the podcast and it’s been really great to get their perspectives, but what seems to be common is that a lot of them have said that their friendship groups, men around them just aren’t open to being vulnerable. And they’ve ended up finding, when they became sober alcohol free, they ended up finding a new set of friends who were then able to hold that space, as you say, and to really start delving into emotions. And they all seemed to find groups of people who they felt comfortable with and then realize that the friends they had were actually not to blanket everyone with the same thing, but quite shallow, didn’t have that depth. And so what are your thoughts? How can we change the tone and the dial to enable more men to actually say, listen, I need help, or I want to talk about this, or I want to be vulnerable or be able to give themselves permission potentially.
David (00:47:53):
I don’t really know the answer to that. So here’s my take. I go on these podcasts to share my experience, strength, and hope so that others might say, oh, this is okay. Through work is my current coach, Nan O’Connor, probably within the last year, even though she was nudging me there for a while. I had three big fears that I’d identified probably seven or eight years ago. But I actually realized that underneath those fears is actually a bigger fear, which is the fear of being weak. And I’m going to speculate, it’s not my expertise, but I think that society wise, certainly the era that I grew up in and for my parents, men definitely couldn’t be weak. And so this taskmaster spirit still trying to drive me on to achieve. I think the flip side of that is just the fear of being weak.
(00:48:57):
Well, if you’re not achieving things, then you’re weak. And isn’t that a bad thing? Because a lot of times when I’m looking for my personal growth, I have to go dig deeper into my fears. I have to become more aware of when I’m operating from that place of fear. And oftentimes it’s unconsciously operating from that place. I don’t even realize it until I get present and spend some time being with it and like, ah, this is what’s really showing up here. And then on top of my fear of being weak is another really common one. Maybe every human being has it, but I’m not good enough. So there’s the I’m not good enough, which led to my being a people pleaser and kind of all the things that go with that, which also leads to my codependency. And then another fear I have, which I think again sets on top of I’m weak, is it’s my fault.
(00:49:55):
Oh, it’s my fault. So if I’m not doing enough and I’m not making enough change and whatever it is, well it’s my fault because I’m not working hard enough or doing enough. And then my third one, which I’d identified, which I haven’t decided how much sits on top of my fear of weakness, but who do you think you are? Who do you, you are to go away on the boat for 12 days and actually just do nothing some days? Who do you think you are? Right? And I mean you say it, and it’s in always that negative connotation, not like who do you think you are to be the most wonderful thing in the world? Isn’t that fantastic? Who do you think you are to be a big shot? You should get your ego in line here and do.dot, right? So those are my four deeper deep underlying fear and then my other fears that I’ve identified.
(00:50:44):
And so I just have to be really careful when I’m operating from those fear-based because it often drives behaviors that are not the behaviors I want. I’m trying to answer your question about for men. I come on these podcasts and I honestly share about those fears and they’re very real for me and they do really show up. And if you have those fears, it’s okay. It’s okay to not feel good enough because the truth is you’re good enough as you are. And one of my defects of characters false pride. I either think I’m worse than you or I think I’m better than you, rather than just I’m a human being, having a human experience doing the best I can. And I don’t in fact need to compare myself to you and where you are on your journey. But I’m a hyper competitive person. So of course, what’s the first thing I dos compare myself trying to figure out whether I’m good enough.
(00:51:45):
So again, it’s just all of this work to let go of some of these things. And another thing I coach around for a lot of people who, especially people who ruminate a lot about the past is my belief is that every human being in every single moment is doing absolutely the best they can. They’re doing the best they can with where they are, with what they believe, with what they’ve learned. And that really takes, so I don’t spend a lot of time ruminating about, well, if only I got into sobriety sooner. And I definitely ruminate about that once in a while, but I don’t ruminate about it too long because it’s like, well, I was doing the best I could and the best I could was to still have my alcoholic brain be in charge and be in denial. And that was the best that I could do.
(00:52:32):
So there it is. And I could take any other number of situations where I feel that I should have deemed better, different chose, whatever, where we have those judgy pieces about our past. It’s like I was doing my best. They were doing their best. That’s the outcome we got when we were doing our best, given where we were stage status, what we knew then with what I knew now, I knew then I could have done better but didn’t. That’s been very helpful to me to build a belief system around everyone is doing their best in every moment. I might not like your behaviors and your best at the moment. It doesn’t mean I have to agree with it or like it, but it’s just, oh yeah, this person is doing the best they can in this instance. And I boiled it all down. I’m a control freak.
(00:53:28):
Entrepreneurs particularly and an alcoholic on top of it. I’d like double whammy of control, alcoholism. And I’ve spent enough time in recovery that I only have two things I have control over. I have control over how I respond to the current event, which used to be I just reacted. Now most of the time I see the reaction and then I choose how to respond sometimes, but I’m not perfect. So sometimes I just react and then later I have to go make an amends and I have a choice about the next right step. I have the next right step and that’s it. I have goals and I have visions, and I have where I want to go. So that’s easier to make my next right step because I have a destination which I’m aiming for, but I’m less outcome focused. If I have a certain expectation of an outcome than usually the universe will disappoint me.
(00:54:25):
And my former coach, Kevin used to tell it to me this way. I’m a super analytical, right? I’m a computer science mathematically trained guy who ran a software business. So again, super, super analytical. So Kevin would say to me, “David, the universe has already decided the outcome to this question with mathematical precision. And you do not need to know the math.“ God, I used to get pissed off when he’d tell me that. What do you mean? What do you mean? I don’t get to know the math. But I’ve since come to believe that that is very accurate and that I’ve come to peace about not knowing the math most of the time.
Dupe (00:55:05):
Yeah, it’s powerful what you’ve said, really. And I think it’s about giving ourselves grace as well. You talked about every human being just doing the best they can in the moment, and we have to give others grace and we have to give ourselves grace. And I think that when you talked about those fears, I think it’s common for everyone. I feel I don’t want to be weak. I’m not worthy. I don’t want to feel like I’m not good enough. All of those things are things that just come up for everybody. And it’s funny because you get the sense, and there’s a recent book that’s come out from Jamie Ken, who you might have heard of, and her book’s called Worthy. And she’s written this book and it is incredible from the stats that she went through, 80, 90% of us feel unworthy in some way.
(00:56:04):
And the things you mentioned are probably the key ones that she talks about as well. And so when it boils down to it, we are all beating and thinking the same thing. We’re all fearful, we’re all worried about all these things. And yet we all walk around like we are all fine and we’re doing and we’re getting things done, and we’re working and we’re achieving. And really we’ve all got those underlying things that we try and push, either push down and then we do that through numbing or through more positive habits, or we just hide it and then get to a point where it suddenly hits you and you realize that you’ve actually just been holding onto all of this stuff and not really processing, working it through, et cetera. I think what you just said has been really important.
David (00:56:54):
I want to circle back to just one comment you made, which is having a friend group or group around you where you have these shallow conversations.
(00:57:03):
I’m thriving on your podcast right now because of the depth of this conversation, and I don’t have much time for how’s the weather? I got a little bit for how the grandkids are doing, but not too much. And I got a lot of time for these kind of conversations. But a lot of people, they don’t even have awareness around it, let alone any comfort level to actually having this conversation. Even if they have a little bit of awareness, they’re not comfortable talking about it. Like you and I have been talking about it. I think those of us who have been beholden to alcohol and then have had to take the steps to get past that, they say 12 step recovery is spiritual because for those of us who’ve gone to hell and we’ve come back and religion is for people who just want to get to heaven and haven’t experienced hell, and it’s a bit superficial, but I think there’s a certain amount of truth in that We have gone places that a lot of human beings haven’t gone to and seen and maybe not seen, perhaps seen, but certainly experienced things at a level that a lot of people, if they have experienced, they’re not willing to acknowledge it.
(00:58:21):
But for me to stay sober, I have to be prepared to look at that and to keep working on it. And in fact, when I got sober, I don’t know exactly when, but fairly early on, I just committed to every year I’m going to do something on a path of personal growth, even if it can be very small. But my current work is this work around being aware of my task master spirit and getting better. My biggest challenge is getting sober. My number one challenge probably is still being still is really hard work for me. And just to be present and to just be present to the magazine I’m reading or the cup of tea I’m drinking, still very hard work and so worth it. Again, I keep remembering I’m worth this work and it’d be better if I could find a reframe that didn’t it work and just called it gross or personal journey.
Dupe (00:59:27):
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it is a journey. I do think being alcohol free is the, getting rid of the alcohol is obviously what we’re all doing. That’s fine. That’s a given. But it is the transformational journey. It’s a growth and transformational journey. I believe
David (00:59:47):
Putting the cork in the bottle is somewhat easy. Exactly. Leaving the cork in the bottle and living life on life’s terms. Very early in our conversation today, you talked about how most of us drink to mask or get past certain feelings, and once we’ve taken our solution off the table, which is alcohol, life goes on, it does, life goes on, and those feelings don’t go away. So now what is your solution for okay with those? And I don’t know exactly what your path has been, but obviously you have found a path to how to deal with those. For me, it’s been sharing through 12 step recovery and the things that I’ve shared about on our conversation today. And again, I am not saying 12 step is the only path and obviously it isn’t because you found another path. I just want anyone who’s suffering to know there is a path forward and I want them to know there’s hope.
(01:00:46):
The other thing I always try and share in any podcast interview I do around alcoholism is I believe we can’t do it alone. The mind that got me into this mess of being an alcoholic is not the mind that can get me out. In fact, my mind is a very dangerous place. So that’s another thing in 12 Step recovery is you are encouraged to get a sponsor, someone who has what you want. And I’ve had a few really good sponsors and that’s where I take the thinking that I have and talk it through with someone else who’s been there, done that. And they might be able to reflect back to me some aspects or perspectives that I had never, my thinking, brain had never thought of.
Dupe (01:01:33):
Funny. They exist isn’t they We’re also, this is how it’s, I don’t think it could be done any other way. And it’s
David (01:01:40):
Always, there is no other I interpretation of this group of events. Exactly. My interpretation is the only interpretation.
Dupe (01:01:48):
Yeah, exactly.
David (01:01:50):
Talk about it with my sponsor. So helpful. Oh, that’s how the other person might be thinking or feeling. Oh, I never thought of that.
Dupe (01:01:58):
Yes, exactly. Yeah, so helpful. Well, this has been a delight. Thank you so much. And so for people that maybe would like to find out more about you, get in touch, maybe do your, I know you said you are offering a one hour coaching call for people. If they want to do that, how can they get in touch with you?
David (01:02:19):
The easiest way is just through my website, coach D J greer.com. That’s Coach D as in David, J as in James greer.com. And top of every page, there’s my email address and my phone number +1 (604) 721-5732. Send me a text, send me an email, and as Dupes said, I offer a free, no obligation one hour coaching call. If there’s something you’re stuck on, let’s have a conversation about it and see how far we can go. So that offer is there for any of your listeners.
Dupe (01:02:48):
Thank you so much. Thank you. So as we come to the end, I always ask this to every guest, what does Thriving Alcohol free mean to you, David?
David (01:02:58):
Well, I think we’ve talked about several aspects of it in this call. I think for me to be able to do the things that allow me to thrive, that resiliency, that self piece, and to be able to do it guilt free, that has really let me build a life of my fondest desires and to let me thrive in it every day. Not that every day is perfect, not that it doesn’t have challenges, but I get to live every day as fully as possible and to have that experience every day and to have it without any alcohol taking any part of it away. Right. I’m not dulling any of my senses or any of my experiences with an artificial drug. And that’s thriving to me. That is thriving.
Dupe (01:03:50):
That’s amazing answer. Thank you so much. So any last piece? I know you’ve got lots of wisdom that you could share, but any last thing you want to leave with the listener,
David (01:04:02):
If you’re questioning your relationship to alcohol, there is a reason to talk to someone else about it.
Dupe (01:04:09):
Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time.
David (01:04:13):
Thank It’s been wonderful.
Dupe (01:04:16):
Good. And I hope that you have a wonderful day and we’ll please speak again soon. Take care.
David (01:04:21):
Thanks a lot.
Dupe (01:04:24):
Well thank you David. That was wonderful conversation and I’m sure it’s going to be so helpful for you. And I do hope you found it useful. And I love the fact that we talked about vulnerability in men. So if you have a man in your life who you think could benefit from hearing this conversation, then please do share this episode. And remember that we always have control over how we can respond to things. We always have a choice about what’s the next right step. So if there’s anything in your life that’s happening at the moment, just remember you can respond to it in any way that you feel you want to and you have a choice on that. You can’t necessarily control everything that’s happening to you, but you can certainly control how to respond to it. So as I said, I hope you found this episode helpful and interesting and do get in touch if you have anything that you would like to hear or people you’d like to learn from.
(01:05:27):
And I will do my best to accommodate that. And as a reminder, a cocktail of Clarity Group Coaching Program starts next week and there’s still time to join up until the 1st of June. And if you want to join me on the Summer Fun Summit, then go and sign up for that for free as well. Alright, well, lovely to speak and I hope you have the most wonderful week and I’ll see you on the next episode. Take care. Thank you so much for listening to the Thrive Alcohol Free Podcast. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe so you get alerted every time I drop a new episode. I’d love it if you could rate, review and share this episode. Feel free to tag me on Instagram at Thrive Alcohol Free and follow me or daily tips. If you’d like to work with me, I offer one-to-one coaching sessions and have my group coaching program. If you’re not yet ready for coaching, I also have my book Cocktail of Clarity or the links are in the show notes. I will see you in the next episode. Have a wonderful week. Take care.
