Summary
Leadership Tips for Success
Join me with Jeff Sesol and Janna Landry on their Pull the Chute Podcast where we discussed:
- My 45 years of entrepreneurial experience and recovery.
- How we built Robelle Solutions Technology from startup to global powerhouse while dealing with alcoholism.
- My coaching approach focusing on three life areas: business/career, relationships/life, and self-care.
- Why I suggest a goal-setting process using 6, 12, and 18-month timeframes across all three areas above.
- As entrepreneurs, we have to slow down to let our teams catch up to our vision.
- I revealed how entrepreneurs often become their own biggest limiting factor in business growth.
- Strategies for effective leadership including giving team members autonomy and avoiding micromanagement.
- I openly discussed my 16 years of sobriety and how I help entrepreneurs navigate alcohol-related challenges.
- I emphasized the importance of knowing when to push and when to step back, using my sailing experience as an example.
Micromanaging Kills Productivity! Leadership Tips for Success
Audio
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5AH2dH4xTZf9OZJso707gh
Transcript
Jeff Sesol (00:00):
Welcome to our podcast. This is our way of bringing you interesting insights from experienced coaches, entrepreneurs, and experts in all aspects of business.
Janna Landry (00:08):
We’re going to talk about real life situations and then we’re going to talk solutions within businesses all across the globe. The good, the bad, and funny because sometimes you just got to laugh.
Jeff Sesol (00:19):
Yes, you do. So sit back, get comfy or in some cases, hold on. Welcome everyone to the Pull the Chute podcast with Jeff and Janna. We are so excited that you are here supporting us. Janna, how are things in Nashville this week?
Janna Landry (00:34):
They’re good. It’s the first day of spring, however, it’s in the forties. And
Jeff Sesol (00:41):
Yeah, and to our listeners, we always record these ahead of time, so we can only tell you what it is today. We can’t tell you what it’s going to be tomorrow, so on that. So yeah, we’re good here in Chicago. As a matter of fact, since we’re talking about that first day of spring, we got two inches of snow here in Chicago last night, so that’s never fun. But it’s supposed to be in the sixties soon. So we’re excited about that and hopefully by the time people listen to this, it’s a nice warm weather that they’re hearing. So, hey Janna, we have a fun guest today.
David Greer is with us today. I’m excited to talk to David and I’m going to ask David to tell us a little bit about it. I know he’s an author and he’s entrepreneur coach, but I’m sure he is done so many other things. David, first of all, welcome to the show.
David Greer (01:20):
Well, thank you so much. It’s super to be here.
Jeff Sesol (01:22):
Great. And I’m actually going to brag a little bit. David’s actually on his boat over in Vancouver and off the, he’s talking to us from there, so that was kind of fun. We’ve never had that one before, so that’s pretty cool to do.
David Greer (01:36):
I’m glad I can give you a new experience.
Jeff Sesol (01:37):
Yeah, we love it. We love it. So David, do us a favor. We always ask our guests to do this. You can do it better than we ever could. Tell our guests a little bit about who you are and how you got to where you’re at today, and then we’re just going to have a conversation.
David Greer (01:49):
Great. Let me start the purpose, why do I come on these podcasts is really, I have a mission, which is to share my experience, strength, and hope in business and in recovery. I’m a recovering alcoholic and I’m very public about that. And I built businesses while being a practicing alcoholic and been building them when I’m sober. Your listeners know why. Listen to me on the business side, when I was 22, I was getting my computer science degree and I joined a young software startup as the first employee after the founders. And I liked the place I stayed 20 years and built it into a global powerhouse. And I think for a lot of people when they hear entrepreneurial stories, they hear that kind of highlight reel, all the best things that happened. But the truth is building a business is full of challenges
Janna Landry (02:57):
Absolutely.
David Greer (02:58):
Has highs, lows, and part of my experiences and part of the coaching work that I do now, it’s helping entrepreneurs to make sure that they build their resiliency that when some of these things come along, they’re not depleted that they can’t do it. And I coach around this idea of three parts of your life, which is career, business, finances, life, which is your relationships, your spouse, your family, your friends. And then what I find in high performing people and especially entrepreneurs, is that we squeeze out this individual in the middle between those two called myself. And it takes conscious effort to do that. You mentioned I’m on my sailboat. Well, that’s one of the places I build my resiliency.
(03:49):
I get away, I get more connected with nature. I actually was planning to go across this body of water car Georgia Strait yesterday and one of the very few times in my sailing career where I didn’t, I just didn’t feel it was safe enough. I’m solo this week and I turned back and I came to a marina in the middle of Vancouver and some of that, that’s part of recognizing when I should push and when I shouldn’t push. And yesterday felt like I was pushing way too hard and was going to put myself and my boat at risk.
Janna Landry (04:30):
So David, as an newer, then as an entrepreneur, you sort of coach people or you work with people on this important middle part, which is yourself and understanding yourself first, which then of course it helps with your relationship and your spouse and all that. But on the other side, the business side, understanding yourself first helps you then become a stronger leader. Tell us a little bit about that. What specifically do you tell people? I mean, do you have a process that you put people through? Do you question them first? Do you go in and kind of analyze them? Give us a little bit of how you
David Greer (05:10):
Yeah. My process with a new client is to get them to write down some goals for six months, 12 months, and 18 months in those three areas, give me at least one goal for your business, one goal for your life, and one goal for yourself in six months, 12 months, 18 months. That could be related goals. They could be totally separate goals, whatever works for you. And then on the personal side, what I do is get them to do the strength finders.
Janna Landry (05:38):
So
David Greer (05:40):
That’s a book and a self-assessment that she takes. You buy the book, it comes with a coupon, you go answer a whole bunch of questions, try not to think about them too hard, and out of it pops five strengths and strength finders suggests we have something, I forget the number. It’s like 42. Oftentimes, I start with a set of goals and I start with a set of strengths. Now which one of those we focus on first has got to be guided by the client.
(06:12):
I ask them, right? And sometimes we never get to reviewing their strengths, but I have that in the background I know where they’re coming from. But for most of my clients, we end up in the first two or three sessions somewhere reviewing their strengths. And most strengths are not that surprising to entrepreneurs who super high performing people and certain level of self-awareness. Where they usually get caught up is when you take the strength to its extreme, it often doesn’t work for you. For example, I have a number of clients whose number one strength is competitiveness. You’re building a business that’s not an altogether bad strength to have. But then I ask them, how is it being competitive with your spouse? How is it being competitive with your children? And for most of these individuals, they have been hyper competitive with both of those areas of their life completely unconsciously. And then it’s other, you might be really good on strategy, but I’m a visionary strategic kind of person. I do a lot of strategic work and I facilitate strategic planning for entrepreneurs and senior leadership teams. But as entrepreneurs, oftentimes we can get 10, 20, 30 steps ahead
(07:36):
And the people we’re leading, we don’t slow down, they don’t see our thought process, they cannot connect the dots. We’re like, and then if you have an activation kind of strength, which I also have, which means your default is just move into action. I already know where we’re going. I’m already moving into action. I’m leaving the whole team 40 people behind because I don’t take the time to slow down and explain my thought process and then involve them in coming up with a plan for action. Right?
Jeff Sesol (08:13):
It’s funny, I call that not needing the B and C, right? So if you go A B, C, D, A to
David Greer (08:18):
D,
Jeff Sesol (08:18):
We can jump to a D do that all the time. You forget the B, I don’t need the B and C, but a lot of people do need B and C.
David Greer (08:24):
Sure. These are the kind of things that we start to work on is start looking at some of these strengths and maybe how they’re not working for them, and then look at how it’s applying to their current goals. Then as we dive into their goals, I stay curious as to what’s blocking them, what’s getting in the way. For example, I think the single biggest limiting factor on a business is the entrepreneur herself or himself. We are the biggest thing that’s in the way of our own success, and we’re often not willing to admit that. Admitting that is really difficult, and I certainly was there for a long time. And then our first, I say you have a bigger business, you’ve got a senior leadership team of four or five people. They’re like not going to call you on it generally because you’re not open to hearing it and you’re going to turn around and tell ’em bad things or not listen or whatever. It’s not worth it. Now, me as a coach who they’ve hired, there’s a little more potential when I call them on it that they’ll listen a little bit more.
Janna Landry (09:36):
So do you put them through some kind of a process then, David, once you discover these kinds of elements within a business that the entrepreneurs usually, we talk about that all the time. Jeff and I, and a lot of the people we interview say, that can be the problem, the 30,000 foot thinker, and he for an entrepreneur is to know who to put in the right place below that next level. Like you said, your senior leadership team, they have to all be understanding of the processes and going from A to D is not going to work. You have to have B and C in there in order to build it. So is that a little bit of what you do then as you go back and you try to again facilitate the working portion of the business or the team?
David Greer (10:18):
Again, it’s client led. Again, the client’s trying to get to certain goals and then stuff is showing up that’s getting in the way of their goals. And often I’ll suggest to them ways they could deal with it and leave the door open to them to choose what they want to do.
Janna Landry (10:37):
I see. Yeah,
David Greer (10:38):
They might be ready now or they might not be. A lot of times it’s like, well, the people that work for me, they don’t listen to me. Well, tell me what you do. And first of all, they tend to tell them what to do. They tell them how to do something rather than this is the thing we need to accomplish. Use all of your beautiful skills to go achieve that. Because the truth for most owner founders, which is kind of people I work with, you’ve grown your business by the seat of your pants. You figured everything out as you went along. You have a pretty good idea from your past experience of how to do every aspect of the business. Now you have to remember when you started, you were a $0 business, and then maybe you became a hundred thousand a year business, and maybe now you’re a million a year business, you’re not the same business that you were at a hundred K. What worked then might or might not work now. And plus you’re hiring these really skilled people who may have totally different ideas than you about how to do these things and you need to let them have space to go do it.
(11:44):
But that’s a really big gross piece for a lot of entrepreneurs I work with because they kind of turn the wheel of the bus over to these senior leaders and they make all the noise. They’re turning it over, and then they see what’s happening and it’s not the way they’re used to or it’s not at the speed they think it should be happening. They go, man, they grab the wheel back, start steering the bus again. And then they wonder, why are these people not listening to you? Well, you’re not letting ’em do their thing.
(12:16):
You’re getting in the way of it. And my belief is that leadership is about making the people you lead successful and giving them the resources and what they need to be successful. It’s more about coaching, it’s about setting clear goals, it’s having difficult conversations when things don’t happen. You do need to keep people accountable. And those are very uncomfortable conversations to have. And even though I’ve done a lot of work around conflict avoidance and difficult conversations, I still am very challenged sometimes to have them, and I still practice a certain amount of avoidance, I can relate and you still need to have them.
Jeff Sesol (13:00):
Yeah,
Janna Landry (13:01):
Absolutely.
Jeff Sesol (13:02):
I find it’s funny you brought this topic up because I think that’s one of the biggest hurdles from a coaching standpoint is getting to get the business owner to get out of their own way. It’s a struggle. And when they tell people they want something done, what I’ve gotten into with some of my clients is the why and because tell them why you want ’em to do it because this is the outcome you’re looking for. And 95% of the time, all of a sudden they’re like, oh, okay, that makes sense. Versus the I don’t know why I am doing this comment. Right? No one tells me why they just told me to do it. I don’t understand why. If we can give ’em the why and because it makes ’em so much better to deal with, and then they understand what the outcomes should be.
David Greer (13:43):
Yeah. My facilitation work, I use a framework from a guy, Verne Harnish has two books, the Rockefeller Habits and another one called Scaling Up, and he’s got famous by something called the One Page Strategic Plan. And in the early two thousands, a lot of my entrepreneur friends were using this. And I eventually went to a training session with him and Verne come up with a bunch of new ideas. But I think that his biggest thing here is he took a lot of ideas and combined them into one thing. Now I will say his plan is a fairly large, you want to be a double sided eight and a half by 11 sheet of paper when you print it out if you’re going to be able to read it. But it starts with things. It starts with Jim Collins, Good to Great. It starts with culture. What’s your culture? Do you define it explicitly? How do you keep your culture alive? That’s part of the actual one page plan. What’s your purpose? It gets back to your question of why purpose in Jim Collins context, which is 30 year purpose. And then one of the things that was totally blew my mind with Verne was that you start by looking out three years, where do you need to be in three years to five years, somewhere in that range and get clearer on that?
(15:06):
Yes, stuff will change, but today, where you’re at today, where do you need to be in three years? For example, if you think in the next three years your market is going to grow 10% a year, then if you don’t grow your revenues at least 10% a year, you’re going to lose market share. If you’re not looking at the bigger picture and the macro and where things are going, or at the end of my tenure with Robelle, which was named for the founders, Robert and Annabelle, the company I joined when I was 22, we specialized in a particular computer platform from Hewlett Packard, and we needed to start much more seriously planning. We didn’t know when the end of that platform was going to come, but we needed to start building a plan that included it. And then you work back from three years to, and by the way, in a three year plan, you should have no more than five key thrusts or capabilities. We’re going to hire a super, super experienced VP of sales in year three, but we’re going to build that we’ll be ready for that or we’re going to move into a new geography.
(16:13):
Then your yearly goals, again, I limit it to five key goals, gets down to, everybody’s clear on where we’re going. They don’t ask the why much because it’s like, well, we said this year we’re going to go here. And then on a quarterly basis, again, five key quarterly rocks. They’re things you absolutely positively must achieve this quarter as a team, and you share this across the whole company, and that brings a lot. It’s reducing. A lot of entrepreneurs try and set 12 or 15 goals, and the problem is, well, employees have no idea where to focus. Where do I start? If you have five, and if you’ve made sure the number one is the number one thing that needs to happen and the other four may or may not be in a perfect order, but at least this is the number one thing that has to happen, then everybody can start pulling in the same direction. That’s how I solve that problem of the why and the what is by using this template to provide clarity. And then it’s got the cultural piece, the bigger purpose piece. You’re seeing these bigger picture aspects of the company. And there’s other things I’ve kind of skipped over, but
(17:34):
Now when we built Robelle, we did it the classic entrepreneurial fashion, which is, Hey, what did we do last year? Okay, how about we do 5% better this year? And I remember somewhere in the nineties we increased revenue by, I don’t remember what it was, probably 15, 18%. And we’re kind of patting ourselves in the back and how wonderful it this is, we were Canadian software companies, principal market was in the US pretty well, a hundred percent of that growth came from changes in the exchange rating. And we were fooling ourselves in terms of thinking we were actually selling more. We were selling roughly the same stuff and the same quantity, but we were getting more Canadian dollars for it.
Jeff Sesol (18:22):
Got it. Interesting.
David Greer (18:25):
But again, you need to get better at stepping back from the business I coach entrepreneurs rather than always being in the business, step back and work on the business.
Janna Landry (18:38):
So David, let’s address the sobriety issue. I think this is a really interesting aspect that you brought into your coaching and your business that is for our listeners that you also recognize and assist in some of these entrepreneurs if they’re having issues with substance abuse or that kind of thing because you’ve been sober for 15 years or did you not say that or you Correct.
David Greer (19:03):
Yes. Actually in January I turned 16.
Janna Landry (19:08):
Okay. 16. Yeah. That’s great. Congrats. But
David Greer (19:11):
Thank you.
Janna Landry (19:11):
Tell us a little bit about how you incorporate that within the structure if you recognize it, and is it easily brought up or is it easily allowed from some of these entrepreneurs? Just because that can be a sensitive subject?
David Greer (19:25):
It is a sensitive subject, and sometimes it comes up, sometimes I suspect, and sometimes I found out about it afterwards. I spent 20 years in denial, literally 20 years as a daily drinker. I totally get self denial about the problem. And I’m just there if they show up as this is a problem, I have some experience, strength, and hope about what’s worked for me, which is all I have. And for some of my clients, I’ve had to make a demarcation, which is if you want me to be a 12 step sponsor and really work on that part of your life with you, I can’t be your professional coach. You got to be one or the other.
(20:16):
And I’d say everyone has chosen to continue with me as a professional coach, but then I’ve pushed them to say, then in this aspect of your life, you need to go find a sponsor. And I would say, and some of it is some clients, I just keep revisiting it from time to time. They make progress, they get clean and sober for a while, then they go back out, I ask them about it. I ask them how it’s working for them, what do they want to do. Again, it’s not for me to judge, it’s their journey, but just to be there supporting them and know that they’ll be welcome back if they want to put it down. And then for others, it’s really more navigating the minefield of being a high performing entrepreneur and in an social environment where there’s a lot of alcohol.
Janna Landry (21:08):
Yes.
David Greer (21:10):
What are the coping mechanisms to help work with that? I was working with a client a couple years ago who was in super high end sales. The stuff they were selling needed teams and then senior VPs to approve. And usually towards the end of the sales process, he would personally have to fly down and have a big dinner. And he did one of these, and he doesn’t have a problem with alcohol, but he was sitting there observing himself and everyone else, and it’s like everyone had two drinks before dinner, and we had one bottle of wine each. And I said, well, by the definition in the US that would be alcohol use disorder, but I am not going to judge. It’s just that level of drinking all at once by the National Health Association. And similarly in Canada, that’s what it would be. And unfortunately, it’s super common. And I help with clients to just in networking events at those events, always have a drink, whether it’s coke, cranberry, and soda and networking events always have a glass in your hand. When people offer you a drink, you can say, I’m fine, even if it’s just a glass of water, because people don’t really question if you have a glass with clear liquid in it, they don’t know if’s water or vodka
(22:39):
Or gin. It’s really about these coping mechanisms out in real life. And if you made alcohol was a part of your culture and then you got sober, it’s like, what are you going to decide to do? And we will talk through that aspect. And for people who are not alcoholics, they might come to me with someone who they suspect has a substance abuse issue, and there’s nothing you can really do except hold them accountable to the things they need to do in the business and make sure that you hold them accountable and that they have to suffer the consequences of their behavior. And you can put boundaries. You can’t show up drunk at work, but you got to decide what the consequence is going to be if they choose to do that. Right. Are you going to let ’em go? And that can be really hard because it’s probably a super high performing individual.
Jeff Sesol (23:40):
Well, I think a lot of times we get these high performing individuals, it’s their coping mechanism to stay at the top of the game. It’s a crutch for them. Right.
David Greer (23:50):
Or for me, it was like rocket fuel power up to get more done and to make the lows not a low and to make the highs higher. Right. It made perfect sense to me. Hey, before we, and I was writing super complicated software, but most of the time I wrote that when I was sober. Fortunately, thank goodness. Yeah, my goodness. But yeah, anyone looking at me from the outside looking in would never have dreamed that I didn’t slur, I didn’t stumble. Right. High
Janna Landry (24:30):
Functioning, there’s a lot of
David Greer (24:31):
High functioning, and I would say 80% of alcoholics are high performing. They have a job, they have a place to live, they’re raising kids. And we still get stuck in the stereotype of someone wearing a trench coat drinking out of a brown paper bag and sitting on a bench. And that’s like maybe 1% if that they look like you and me and our neighbors and our friends, and one in 10 people have alcohol use disorder in Canada and the US. What you think about that, think about 10 people think about being in a crowd of a hundred, there’s probably 10.
Jeff Sesol (25:13):
Yeah. It’s crazy.
David Greer (25:15):
It’s very prevalent.
Jeff Sesol (25:17):
Yeah. David, I want to go back to one thing that you said almost in the very beginning here of when we started talking, just because I think it’s a really important point. And that was when you went to go sailing, you decided that you shouldn’t be pushing, you were going to sail across the sound, and maybe you shouldn’t be pushing. And I know a lot of times in business we have a tendency to push too much, and I thought that was very apropos for you to say, but just because to me, it’s like one of the things that’s important that I learned middle of my career was for a long time things weren’t going the way I wanted, so I pushed. And then you also said when you push, the results are not what you would hoped for. Right? I want our listeners to understand that. I think that’s a very important point that you brought up. I think from an entrepreneurial standpoint, we set ourselves up a lot of times, I’ll be honest. We set goals that are unreachable and we think we’re going to be at a certain place and where we’re not, we can push harder. We work more hours. And the reality is then that affects the other two parts of it, which is life and myself,
(26:23):
Which you were talking about. And so that’s why I kind of want to tie all this together. I thought that was a very interesting point. Do you find that the majority of your clients have a tendency to push when they shouldn’t? Or do you think that they’re kind of waiting to see what’s going to happen? I was just curious
David Greer (26:40):
How you No, none of them wait.
Jeff Sesol (26:41):
Yeah.
David Greer (26:42):
Okay. And sometimes just in the passage of time, things change and things happen, or you have more data. Sometimes it goes against your natural instinct, but actually the best thing is to be patient and wait. But also I have this internal Task Master Spirit that I’ve named that is really, really deeply embedded in me. And I’m a master at getting things done, and I have done a lot in my life. And now as I’ve done more self-examination and personal work and recovery work, TMS as I often call doesn’t serve me well. I have to be aware of when this internal very important aspect of me and that is also embedded very deep, is kind of taken over. Which one of the ways now is, oh, I’m really, really pushing here. Is this a situation that needs push?
Jeff Sesol (27:50):
Well, I think that’s the question. Is this the situation that he push? There are going to be certain situations that you need
David Greer (27:55):
To Absolutely. We’re as an entrepreneur, we’re the leader. We’re the energy, we’re the juice. We make shit happen.
Janna Landry (28:05):
Yes, yes.
David Greer (28:07):
Right. Absolutely. But sometimes that’s not the right thing to be doing.
Jeff Sesol (28:14):
Sometimes you just, as we say, you pull the chute, which is why we named the company that way. You take it, you feel in control, see where you’re at and see where you want to go. And a lot of times when you do that, you’re like, yeah, why am I pushing so hard right now? I don’t need to be doing that.
David Greer (28:27):
Correct.
Jeff Sesol (28:29):
Yeah.
David Greer (28:30):
Right. And or our self-worth or some aspect of ourselves is too attached to the outcome. We do want to make that outcome happen. That’s part of our secret sauce and our magic. But it’s when we get too attached to achieving that is when I find we create a lot of personal grief by pushing too hard, being a workaholic, excluding other parts of my life, not looking after myself.
Janna Landry (28:57):
It’s
David Greer (28:57):
Often in that pushing for a certain outcome that I’m convinced is the outcome that has to happen. I need to set the goal, I need to orient everyone towards that. And then what I’ve learned in life is mostly I need to figure out what’s the next right thing?
Janna Landry (29:15):
Agree.
David Greer (29:16):
And that’s it. What’s the next right thing in the next 10 minutes, in the next half an hour, not tomorrow, not Friday, not middle of next week, what’s right now? What’s the next right thing? And the other thing with entrepreneurs is I think they get wrapped up in the day-to-day. If I’m working with an entrepreneur, who I’ve helped facilitate, and I’ve used the strategic planning one page plan thing, I’m like, how many hours a day are you spending on those five goals for the quarter and thinking about the strategy for the company? And if it’s less than an hour, then I don’t think you’re doing your role interesting. And you need to take your best hour of the day, not your throwaway end of day, totally burnt out hour of the day. But I am a morning person, the first hour, I coach ’em like, don’t read emails, don’t listen to voicemails, or come in an hour early before anyone’s there. That hour is for you to focus on the number one goal for the company, and what do you need to set up or help or do or call or talk to make that happen?
Janna Landry (30:40):
Yeah. Love it.
David Greer (30:41):
And that discipline will get your business much farther than the next fire, the next customer complaint, than the next wrench in the wheels of product management and product release. I’m not saying those aren’t important, but that’s probably not the best use of just fighting those fires is moving you away from your strategy and your strategic goals.
Jeff Sesol (31:10):
Love it. Love it. Hey, David, thank you so much for such great advice. We really, really appreciate it. We have to wind things down here, but boy, I love the insight. Just amazing. Amazing. David, if people want to get ahold of you, how can they do that?
David Greer (31:23):
Easiest way, visit my website, coachdjgreer.com. That’s coach D as in David, J as in James Greer.com. The top left corner of every single webpage on my website has my email address and my phone number.
Janna Landry (31:39):
Cool.
David Greer (31:40):
Great. And if that doesn’t work, there’s a contact form too. All right. There you go. I love it. And I do want your listeners to know, I have a standing offer for anyone who wants, I offer a free one hour coaching call.
Janna Landry (31:51):
That great.
David Greer (31:52):
If you feel stuck on something and you’d like some help with it, just this is my website and send me an email and let me know, and we’ll find a time that works for both of us, and we’ll do that.
Jeff Sesol (32:07):
Perfect. Well, David, again, thanks for being on the show. Really appreciate it. Fellow listed listeners out there as always, first of all, go check out David’s site and take him up on the free one hour coaching call if you need to. Jan and I are always excited to be able to talk to you as well. So continue the emails, continue them coming. We love the feedback. It helps us just make this podcast a little better. Reach in every week, and we’re excited for the support that you always give us. Until the next time, folks, stay safe and be healthy. Wow, Jana, that was a great podcast. Today, we’re just having way too much fun. We hope you, our listeners, enjoy today’s podcast as much as we did. If so, do us a favor, tell your friends,
Janna Landry (32:49):
Jeff, speaking of friends, we also provide leadership and communication coaching because we have a passion to build the leaders of tomorrow today.
Jeff Sesol (32:57):
So keep us in mind or reach out and let us help you to become better leaders. You can find us at jeff@pullthechute.net, or
Janna Landry (33:05):
Jana@janalandry.com. Until next time.
