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Join Bill and Mike on their Sober Not Mature Podcast as we laugh, use a little off color language, and talk about many aspects of recovery:

• My journey into recovery—what it was like, what happened, and what it’s like now.
• Establishing daily habits to keep us grounded, which allows us to show up as our best selves for those around us.
• How 12-step recovery has helped us to live life on life’s terms without having to drink alcohol.
• Feeling all our emotions, good or bad, fully while staying present to them and our experience.
• The gift of family acceptance as we have gotten sober, grown, and shown up differently in our lives.
• Recovery means owning our behaviors and making a commitment to changing them when they are not appropriate.

You’ll have a lot of fun listening to the three of us. Give it a listen:

Episode 69 (Coach David G – Owning Our Behavior, Without A Mortgage)

Transcript

Bill:

Are you ready?

Mike:

Starting now?

Bill:

Now you just messed it up, you nob. Yeah, the shit that we go through for this, huh?

Mike:

I know. Fuckers better appreciate it.

When we started, we were just like, “Yeah, we’re just going to do this, man. Shoot our wad into the wind and see what happens.”

What’s the title of this podcast again?

Bill:

I don’t know. I don’t know. Something with a penis, I guess.

Our fucking faces are everywhere now.

Mike:

Right? You’re welcome, ladies.

Bill:

Right. Popular with the ladies.

I’m not even going to apologize because, hopefully, it sounds fucking hilarious.

Yeah, apparently, this is fucking explicit now.

Mike:

Ah, the explicit button, let me use my finger. (Singing).

Bill:

It is time for another episode of Sober Not Mature, and that episode starts now.

All right, everyone, welcome, once again to another episode of Sober Not Mature, and hopefully everyone’s been paying attention. We do have a guest tonight. We have Coach David with us, but I’ll let him introduce himself and we’ll get into the full thing here in a minute. But, David, why don’t you go ahead and at least introduce yourself first and then we’ll go over a couple of things to get started, okay?

David:

Well, I’m Coach David J. Greer, so that’s part of what I do professionally. Also, I’m an alcoholic, and I’ve been in recovery for over 14 years, and one of the things I do is specialize in working with entrepreneurs who are challenged by alcoholism or addiction.

Mike:

Cool.

Bill:

Wonderful, yeah. And welcome. Yeah, and you had reached out to us, gosh, I think it was … and we’ve had a couple of guests on recently where it’s been a couple of months before we could get somebody on, either based on their schedule, or thankfully, we’ve had either guests booked or things going on, which is certainly a good problem to have. But I know you reached out to us, and the couple of things that you and I had messaged back and forth about who you were, what you do, and it sounded like you’ve got at least a similar background to what we have.

It sounds like a little bit of AA-based. You’ve been sober for 14 years, we’ve been sober a little over 13, so it seemed to be a nice combination. I know we want to talk about, obviously, the sobriety end of things. We want to talk about, or let you talk about, your coaching, both if you’re doing any type of sober coaching, your entrepreneur type of stuff. Anything that you want to talk about, we want to be able to get it out there for everyone who listens and also, of course, for your benefit. But we were talking a little bit beforehand about, and Mike and I laughed when I said the word format, but we really don’t have a format, maybe guidelines of sorts. Would that be a better way to put it, Mike?

Mike:

Yeah. We have a conversation. We talk about sobriety and shoot the shit and all that good stuff, absolutely. But the guideline, ooh, there’s my first air quote of the podcast, the guideline is basically we know how to get fucked up. We know how to ruin our lives. We know how to ruin everybody’s life around us. We know how to do that. We know what that’s about. None of us are unique, none of us are all that special. We know that stuff. What we’re concerned about is the solution. How do we stay sober today, how did we get sober, that kind of stuff. We don’t want a huge drunk log, but we do want to know where you come from. With that, we’re going to let you go, David,

Bill:

Easy enough.

David:

Okay. If in doubt, in my 12-step program of recovery, it’s what it was like, what happened, and what it’s like now. And so what happened, I start at the beginning, so I was adopted in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and that’s an important part of my story, my recovery story, and upper middle class family. My parents, I don’t think are alcoholics, but they were daily drinkers. Dad had his own business, which my grandfather started. He came home, had a scotch and soda and poured a gin and tonic from my mom, and that’s how they quieted down in the transition from the business day to dinner and evening.

Mike:

Apparently, they could do that.

David:

Yes, they could have just one. They could have just one, right?

Mike:

Crazy.

Bill:

Who are these people?

David:

Exactly. Really, really crazy. And, in high school, I was an academic geek jock, so I went to keg parties with the football team and drank after basketball games, and a lot of it was binge-drinking, and then there’d be Saturday night and the weekend and then move on. And moved out to the coast, moved from Edmonton out to Vancouver, BC, Canada, where I am now, on the west coast of Canada, and went to university, played on the rugby team. That was another great place to hang around with people who like to drink-

Mike:

I’ve heard that about rugby players

David:

… and like to drink a lot. But, again, it wasn’t really impinging on anything. The story … my relationship to alcohol is very much the progressive nature of the disease. And I don’t even know the exact time that I became a pickle. I’ll share in a minute where I know for sure I had become one. I just don’t know how much before that it was. I joined a young software startup when I was still at university, and I stayed with the place for 20 years, grew it into a global powerhouse. Part of the way I coped with stress in there, eventually, was drinking.

When my wife got pregnant with our first child, Jocelyn, she committed to stop drinking for the pregnancy. We’re both healthy people, like to live a healthy life, or so I thought. And, anyways, that lasted for 24 hours, and then I went back to drinking and somehow I squared it with my wife, which I still don’t even know how I made that work, but I’m an alcoholic, so we’re good at that kind of thing.

Mike:

Yeah, we’re very per pervasive. Yes.

David:

Exactly. Right. We can explain away almost anything. And then, two years later, she got pregnant with our son, Kevin. I didn’t commit and I didn’t stop drinking. I then ended up buying out one of the founders of the company that I was with, and that was so stressful. I remember I was standing at the accountant’s office with tears coming down my face. I had two kids, four and two, I was about 34 years old, and I was going to have to commit to a lot of things and a lot of debt, which I did, but then I had arrived. Now I’m a big shot. I’m now partners with my former boss. I don’t have to have employee reviews. And the drinking just progressed. And we had another child.

What I know is, when Jocelyn came along, when Karalee got pregnant with Jocelyn, I was a pickle. I just don’t know how much in front. I don’t know if I was quite daily drinking by then, but probably pretty close if not. I probably was, I just can’t remember. And fast-forward to 2001, my former partner and I have a really major disagreement and we settle it by him buying me out. I’m on the street for the first time in 20 years. My wife had sold her physiotherapy practice, and someone smarter than me said, “David, your kids will never be 12, 10, and six again. Do you need to work right away?” And I’m like, “No, I got a pretty good check in my jeans. I’m not done for life, but I don’t have to work right away.” Well, I was busy trying to chase deals. And, anyway, so we hatched a plan and we launched a sailboat in the south of France and took our three kids and homeschooled them for two years and traveled more than 5,000 miles in the Mediterranean by sailboat.

Mike:

Nice.

Bill:

Really nice.

David:

Yeah. The Disney version of this story would be I arrived in the south of France, I saw God and sunshine and I stopped drinking, and all is good in the world.

Mike:

Yeah. Well, as a fellow alcoholic, I can see pretty much the exact opposite of that. I’m free to do whatever the fuck I want now.

David:

Well, and more than that, every place you pull up with your boat, there’s shore side restaurants serving booze, and booze, especially in the province, I’m in British Columbia, it’s really expensive, super, super high taxes, so, oh, wine costs less than half. Beer is only two-thirds.

Mike:

Perfect.

David:

I absolutely drank my way through the whole Mediterranean, except … and here’s where I think something was maybe talking to me a little bit, I wasn’t listening, but I think it was talking to me. We did over 20 overnight passages in the two years that we sailed in the Mediterranean, and anytime we did an overnight passage, I never even thought of drinking, just not at all. And some of our passages were three days and three nights. And long passages were many, many hours from land, totally out of sight of land, and when the safety of my family was at stake, really at stake, I just didn’t drink. And one of the second or third passages we did was across the Western Mediterranean Sea, and there was actually high pressure, which means no wind, so we were actually powering.

And my son and I, who was 10 at the time, we went on watch at 2:00 in the morning, and I said to him, “You take the left side of the boat and I’ll take the right-hand side,” and we kept confusing stars in the horizon for ships, it was so bright. And the Milky Way was completely above us in just a line. And I always tell that story when I’m taking my cake in my 12-step program in recovery because I really think the universe was trying to touch me in a deep way. And it was a very magical watch with my son, and it’s a night we both really remember together.

And, anyways, come back from that, I start doing some early stage angel investing, looking at a lot of companies, joining boards of directors of startups, and I am professionally completely unfulfilled, drinking a ton. And then I went to a training event with one of my young CEOs, a guy by the name of Verne Harnish, which, in some ways, it doesn’t matter. It is a framework that I now specialize in. But at the back of the room were two coaches, and I went and talked to them. And one of those coaches made me more uncomfortable than I had been in years. In fact, I had tears to the corner of my eyes by just a couple of questions that he asked me. And went home from that. And I had Kevin’s card next to my phone for, I don’t know, probably three weeks, and every time I thought of calling him, the phone weighed at least 10,000 pounds, at least.

And then Kevin called me, and he said, “Hey, I thought there was a spark that day. Would you be interested in having me be your coach?” And my belief is that God, the universe, put Kevin in my path to get sober. And we started working together, and Kevin is an intense a guy as I am. When you hired him at that time as your coach, your first coaching session were two eight-hour days.

Bill:

Wow.

David:

It’s typical of me. I’m all in or all out. There’s no halfway. And so we worked together for 18, well, we worked together for nine years, but we worked together for 18 months, and I was still drinking the whole time until, finally, on January 26th, 2009, a Monday night, I carefully planned it, had what turned out to be my last beer so far, and I sent him an email. I would always email him the night before with the topic for the coaching call the next day. And I said, “The topic is my drinking.” And the next day we had our coaching call and I admitted to him I had a drinking problem, and he coached me to go to an AA meeting.

And what was fascinating is that he, for many years, has had a summer place down in Washington State, and it’s got cabins, but group fire pits and things like that. He’d sat around the fire a lot of nights with someone, another Canadian who had a place down there who had 20 years in AA. And Kevin, he’s not an alcoholic, but he’s a curious, curious guy, so he talked to him a lot about it. When I told Kevin I had this problem, he knew exactly what to do.

Mike:

Nice.

David:

And I said I’m all in or all out. That was a Tuesday, January 27th, 2009. I had an event downtown, a networking event, that lasted til eight. I went and searched the online AA meetings and got a list, as one does. And, lo and behold, at 8:30, there was going to be a meeting a quarter of a block away from the street I would naturally be driving by on the way to my home.

Bill:

Coincidence or not?

David:

Just an accident of fate. And so I went to the meeting. And it’s in a legion, which a legion was originally founded to support members of the military who retired, to socialize and to drink. And so, in this legion, downstairs is a bar, and so I walked through the door, and the doors to the bar sometimes are closed, but that night they were open, and there were beers on a bunch of tables. And I just stood there like a deer in the headlights. And then a couple people went by, and they had that sixth sense that people in AA do, and they said, “Oh, if you’re looking for a meeting, go down the hall and up the stairs.”

Mike:

Wrong room.

Bill:

You look like you need one. Come with me.

David:

Yeah, yeah, maybe you should go this way. Maybe.

And, interestingly enough, in that legion, there’s 12 steps between the first floor and the second floor-

Mike:

Nice.

Bill:

That’s very cool.

David:

… something we always would joke about. And, anyways, I went. It was a very big meeting, probably 60 people or more. I stood in the back, as one does. It was probably years before I admitted to anyone, or even myself, how scared I was. And these two young women, Frostine and Justine, they separately came out and they just talked to me and they welcomed me. And I ended up sitting down. There’s a central aisle and chairs that go out from the central aisle, and I sat on an edge seat, not at the very back though. I give myself credit. I went halfway up.

And about three-quarters of the way through the meeting, the chairperson asked, “Is there anyone new to the program who would like to stand up and introduce themselves?” And that person waited a very long time, probably a good 30 seconds, and the 29th second, I stood up and said, “I’m David, I’m an alcoholic.” And I think, in some ways, that was the moment, that was the moment, because I publicly stood up and spoke my truth. I didn’t, at the time, understand, even fractionally, what truth I was really speaking, of course, because it’s my first meeting. I later learned, because eventually I got asked to chair that meeting, and in the chairperson’s notes it says, “Ask if there’s any newcomers, open parenthesis. Wait because they’re scared.”

Mike:

Nice.

David:

And it’s still in our script.

Mike:

Cool.

David:

And, by the way, I know that because that’s been my home group for 14 years, four months and, well, whatever. I was there on Tuesday. And post-COVID, we can’t meet at the legion anymore. They restructured and renovated and they’re way too expensive. But the meeting, it’s actually a very long-time meeting. It’s a meeting that’s been going for over 40 years in Vancouver.

Bill:

Well, that’s cool. But that is relatively common, though, in meetings when they ask for newcomers. I don’t remember it, Mike, ever being in a scripting that I read, but it’s just like we knew to sometimes just pause for a minute, because you can see people looking around like, “Is somebody going to stand up first? Is somebody going to go before me?” Because it’s okay if somebody leads first, but if you’re the only person that time, and it is, it’s a daunting task when you first walk in there.

David:

And that night I was the only one.

I was the only one, again, 60, 70 people in the room.

Bill:

And, quick question, the Kevin that you spoke of, he’s not a sober coach, he’s a business coach, but had some dealings with an individual so he knew of.

David:

Correct.

Bill:

Okay. Very cool. And Mike and I talk about that all the time that we, well, clearly, have a lot of normie friends and things like that. And there’s people that we know that have done that, that, hey, if they find somebody, run across somebody that needs some help, and it’s cool to have a normie be able to say, “Hey, I know of a guy, I know of a girl. I know of a woman, a man. I know a few people, that, here, let’s …” It’s an important part of, I don’t know, it’s just us being there for other people indirectly, I guess.

David:

Completely. I’ll come more to my story, what happened, but I really see my mission at the moment is to try and reduce the stigmatism around alcoholism and to offer hope, and that’s why I broke my anonymity two and a half or three years ago. I went really public. And I, very regularly, tell other coaches, tell other people, or people … I just was on a really big trip and the travel agent that arranged the trip was with us, and her husband would clearly appear to be, from outside, I don’t want to judge the person, but high probability he’s an alcoholic. And I just said, “You’ve got my name, you’ve got my number if he ever wants to talk. I’m here.”

And I moved from Coach Kevin to another coach. Coach Nan is in Atlanta, and we’ve talked recovery a lot. But, again, it’s like if you have someone who’s struggling, I’ll always be happy to talk to them, and she had a client last year who’s clearly a workaholic and struggling, and we did have an hour chat. And I’m not certain it made a difference, and of course, it doesn’t matter whether it made a difference. I’m doing step-12 work. And my sponsor, has a couple great stories from his sobriety, reminds us, it’s not about keeping someone else sober. It’s about you get to keep your sobriety if you share your experience, strength, and hope.

Mike:

Exactly. Yeah. Like Lois told Bill, he came home and said, “I can’t keep any of these guys sober. She said, “Yeah, but you’re still sober.”

David:

Exactly, exactly. Since then I came into the program, I’ve been a three-meeting-a-week guy. I never did 90 and 90 days as is sometimes suggested. My ego definitely was not up for that, like don’t you how important I am and how much I have to do?

But I did go to three meetings a week, and I still really try and get to three meetings a week, and the reason is I still believe my alcoholic brain wants to kill me. And part of going to three meetings a week is just to remind myself that I am an alcoholic with an alcoholic brain that wants to kill me, seriously. It’s that simple sometimes.

It’s to be in a room with other recovering people and go, “Wow, look at everyone around me is a miracle today. I must be a miracle today because I’m sober. They’re sober,” and none of us could keep ourselves sober when we were drinking.

Mike:

Nope.

Bill:

That’s for damn sure.

David:

There is some power at work here. We don’t have to agree on what it is, we don’t even have to know what it is, but a miracle is happening. And I don’t know why I get the miracle and others, and again, I don’t need to know, but I try and have gratitude that I get the miracle today.

And I my sponsor is, “You should do the steps every 12 to 18 months,” kind of sponsor, and so it did take a while. I was probably almost-

It did take a while, it was probably almost 15 or 18 months before I really did my first set of steps. And for me, working the steps, I’ve only been successful doing it by doing a working step group with another small group of men. Where we meet every week, and we commit to 16 weeks in a row, and we just work through it. And just having that peer pressure, even though it’s very light, no one’s going to say anything if you drop out-

Mike:

Accountability.

David:

Yeah, But it’s still the accountability, right? And it’s showing up-

Mike:

Absolutely.

David:

And doing the work. And it’s like an hour a week for the meeting and about an hour and a half, maybe two hours a week to do the homework. It’s just a three hours a week investment for 16 weeks. Pretty good deal.

Mike:

Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. Well we both got sober in Cleveland, Bill moved away, I’m still here. And here’s our plug for Cleveland sobriety. Cleveland is very specific, you talk to people around the world and anybody that’s ever been here knows that this is a pretty hardcore place. And the way we were taught was, we do four, five, and eight to the best of our ability and we don’t ever have to do them again. That means that I need to work the rest of the steps every day, all of them, one day at a time for the rest of my life. I always say, I do one, two, and three before I get out of bed in the morning every day, I have to. You talk about reminding yourself. I consider myself to be so sick that I have to, on a daily basis, wake up when that alarm goes off, I hit the alarm and I go, “Hey, asshole, you’re an alcoholic. Don’t forget it. You’re powerless and you’re unmanageable.”

David:

Exactly.

Mike:

Right.

David:

I sit on a cushion, I have a journaling practice, I journal first thing in the morning and before I go to bed at night, and sometimes other times. Yeah, I have most of that step one, two, three prayers, and I just have a whole prayer sequence I’ve developed over the years.

Mike:

Anybody that’s successful at this thing does you get that routine-

David:

And just to be grounded.

Mike:

You get that practice. Yeah.

David:

And to be grounded and to be like still, which is fucking the hardest thing for me to be is still. I’m an action oriented individual and its baked deep into me. If in doubt, going into action. It’s another one of my coping mechanisms. And a lot of times, it serves me super well. I’ve got an unbelievable amount of shit done in my life, and had an unbelievable amount of success. And it doesn’t always serve me, so. That’s still part of it.

Mike:

Well, you got to take that 10 minutes a day and shut everything down.

Bill:

Well, and that’s what we were taught too. And there’s certain things that Mike and I do about the same things I read, I think, two more readings than you do every day. But my process in the morning takes about 20 minutes and that’s it. Then I do a set of prayers at night and that’s how I end my day.

But if I’m traveling or I’m around people … well, a great example, when our mom passed away. We went to her, a bunch of us were in a house, we had 14 people in a house. And if I’m with that many people, my prayers are my own. So I went into the bathroom and I brushed my teeth, I put my contacts in and I literally sat down … not to go to the bathroom. But I sat down on the toilet in the bathroom to do my prayers by myself. And then, I went out into the front room. Or if I’m with family, everyone knows that I do my reading and I’ll have my computer and I’ll have my phone, because I’ve got everything either on my computer or my phone. Mike, you still uses the physical books.

Mike:

Yes, I do.

Bill:

But I mean, everyone knows what our deal is. He stays in his room and does it. I will do it out in front of people, the readings part. But if somebody starts, oh, you know this. I’m like, “Just, give me five.” And I don’t mind if somebody’s there, but I’m going to sit there and I’m going to do that. And it is, it’s part of that … it’s that routine, it’s that process. It’s getting ourselves set and ready for the day and without it, both of us have agreed that we’d just be fucked. If we didn’t do that every day. I can’t function without getting my head straight every morning. I can’t.

David:

So my sponsor does a series of online readings every day and he gathers those together in an email and sends it out to about 75 of us.

Bill:

Oh wow.

David:

He actually gathers it together in an email, sends it out, and then he prints it out and then he likes to read the printed copy. And it’s a couple things from AA, one from Al-Anon around codependency, usually, and then a little summary. So that’s also part of my daily reading. I mean, he sends it out a little bit later, so I get to it a little bit later. But I always take the time to try and read it slowly, and actually sometimes, you got to reread it four times because my brain is skipping over it.

Bill:

Every day. Every day.

David:

I don’t think you guys have ever experienced that.

Mike:

No. Like I started off with, we’re unique, we’re special, we’re different.

David:

Terminally unique.

Yeah. And eventually, the first two times I did the steps, the first time for sure I was quite nervous. Now I’ve probably done it seven or eight times total. It’s a way to get to know myself better, and I actually look forward to it and look forward to the experience of doing it with other men. And as you said, my step four list, the only thing that comes back on my step four list is myself. Because I still have that part of me that’s so, so tough on myself. And usually, nothing new is coming onto step eight. So yeah, I mean, I practice step 10 pretty hard.

Mike:

Yeah, I was going to say.

Bill:

Yeah, that was the next one.

Mike:

Step one and step 10, so you don’t have to …

David:

… my grand sponsor was part of my home group for a long time. And so from my grand sponsor to my sponsor, they have a very clear attitude of promptly. Which is 24 hours. So that’s their definition of promptly. Which is, I like that. It has clear … you don’t sit on this. You need to go and do the uncomfortable thing, and own your stuff, and make a commitment you’re going to try and do better next time, and move on.

Mike:

Well, personally, as a selfish, self-centered, asshole, I like cleaning that stuff up as quickly as possible, so I don’t feel like shit.

Bill:

And you know what and it is, it’s a matter of there … and we’ve talked about this plenty of times. But there’s been a number of times, a lot of times over the years when I’ve, again, that 10 step mindset has taken me back to somebody to apologize. And invariably, in a lot of circumstances they’re like, no, I get it. You were upset or that wasn’t a big deal, you don’t need to apologize. And in my head I’m like, damn it. Thinking I didn’t have to, but I did.

Mike:

Yes, I do.

Bill:

But I did. Even if they didn’t think that’s how I felt and I thought it, so I got to get it out. And then it clears it up that there’s no question in my head, my side of the street’s clean. I’ve never had anyone say, I don’t accept your apology. That’s the number one. Never has anyone said, I don’t accept it. Which thankfully means, hopefully, that I haven’t jacked anyone up too badly in the last 13 years. And it’s usually something relatively simple like, you lose your temper or you snap at somebody or something like that. It’s a human thing that everyone else does, but we’re doing it still, but at a lesser level. So I think maybe that’s why people don’t think it’s a big deal because they just got screamed at by somebody else that just flipped them off and walked away and would never say you’re sorry.

David:

Exactly. Well, and my sponsor is really adamant about, like a lot of us said sorry a lot when we were drinking, and then we never changed our behavior. And so it’s not really about an apology, it’s about owning your behavior, owning that you’ve lost control of your anger. It’s okay to be angry, it’s about how you express it. And so if I express it inappropriately, then I need to own that behavior. And yes, I can say I’m sorry. But really, it’s about owning that behavior and then saying, I would like to do better with this next time. And sometimes with my wife and I’ll say, “And if you see I’m not doing it well, I want you to point it out to me.”

Bill:

Right. It’s a dangerous thing, but I’ll tell you what, that’s accountability.

David:

Exactly. That’s a commitment to making change.

Bill:

Oh, yeah.

David:

Right. And not continuing the behavior. Which to me, that’s what step nine and ten are … what amends are about, is about changing our behavior. Way more than the apology, it’s about I’m going to become a different person, I’m going to live differently and I’m going to show up differently.

Mike:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the whole point of all of this is to be a better person. I mean, yes, and not have to pick up that drink because you’re a better person. Pretty fucking simple.

David:

It is.

Bill:

And one thing, David, I wrote down, because I really liked it when you said that was “own your behavior.” Two things that that’s probably going to end up in the description when I write this up because.

David:

Good.

Bill:

Because I like it and I may steal that and I may use that. Own your behavior because I like that. And I mean, that’s not that … I think that’s what I try to do, but you just put something into words. Mike and I have these … well, I get these epiphanies all the time on this podcast, where I’m like rambling around some stuff and he’ll say something and then I ramble around about all this and then you’re like, own your behavior. I’m like, yes.

But then the one thing when you were talking about your wife. So my ex-wife, my son’s mom, we split up five years, four years before I got sober. But she used to always tell me because it was always anytime I acted up, sorry, sorry, sorry. And I would never change my behavior. The one thing that she told me at that time, which still sticks with me, and she told me this while I was drinking. She said, “The things you do are not things people say sorry for.” She’s like, “People say sorry if they spill your milk. The things that you can’t be explained away that way.” I’d be like, well, fuck you then. But again, I was an active raging alcoholic, so she just said, sorry’s not for the things you do and I understand it now. But at the time, I just thought, fuck it, then I’m not going to say anything.

David:

Because you’re in the middle of your addiction. Of course.

Bill:

Big time anyway. But seriously, own your behavior. I love it. Just wanted to let you know.

David:

I can go any way you guys want to go. I did want to share one other aspect of my recovery.

Bill:

Feel free.

Mike:

Please.

David:

Four years ago I was at the Sobriety Under the Sun Conference in Puerto Vallarta, which I really liked. Which is an AA conference, but it’s co-hosted or helped with Al-Anon and they have quite a few Al-Anon speakers. I went to an Al-Anon panel discussion, a four woman who shared, and one of them I really related to the story that she shared, and I went up and I talked to her afterwards. And she just looked me in the eye and she said, well, she said, a year ago I started going to adult children of alcoholics and dysfunctional families, and I’ve made more progress in the last year than I did in 20 with Al-Anon. And that got my attention.

So I started attending ACA and they have their own set of workbooks. And it’s still the AA steps, but the workbook asks questions in a very, very different way, really digging much more into your family origin. And this has been a fantastic adjunct to my recovery, and let me heal even more. And they use a model of a critical parent and a loving parent and an inner child. And that model has been very powerful for me to understand what’s going on inside me. So for any of your listeners or for you, that has just really … like some of those stories that I mentioned that I have to keep putting myself on step four, because I have resentments against myself or I owe amends to myself. That’s almost all driven from my critical parent like criticizing me and me reacting to that.

And now I can actually recognize it and I can actually say, “Thank you for showing up and I don’t need your help right now. I’ve got this. It’s okay. We’re just fine.” And again, it’s been another huge big body of personal growth work, but I just wanted to share that. And it’s not that I’ve put AA aside in any way, I’ve still going to my three meetings a week, still have my group I’m working with. But it has been a really big addition to my recovery and a very powerful-

Mike:

Very nice. I mean, God knows we could use all the help we can get.

Bill:

Well, I know that there’s … and I’ve met … and for life of me, I can’t think of specific examples, not that I’ve named them anyhow. But I’ve met people over the years that either it was like a vice versa, started off in AA and added Al-Anon, there was some people that started off in Al-Anon and added AA. I’ve heard people talk about on some of the podcasts that I’ve been listening to, the Adult Children of Alcoholics. My dad gave me that book when I was 17 or 18. I’ve told that story before, kind of a long one.

But I also gave that book to my son, I think probably now, five years ago or something like that. And I gave it to him and I told him the story about what happened when my dad had given it to me and what happened with the … it was the woman he was with at the time, it was this big blown up thing. But all I said to my son at that time was, I’m going to give it to you. If you choose to read it, feel free. If you have questions, you can ask me. But I said, I’ll never ask you about it again. I’m not going to force you to do it. Because that was part of the thing that was brought on me. And to me, it just kind of went … it’s completely the opposite of what that whole thing is trying to teach. So I gave it to him. To this day, I don’t know if he’s read it, but I gave it to him.

Mike:

Good for you.

Bill:

I try to be open with him that my dad was an alcoholic, I’m an alcoholic. It doesn’t doom him to alcoholism. But I told him, I said, you need to be mindful, if nothing else. And he’s been-

Mike:

For sure.

Bill:

Completely open with me, he’s had questions over the years. He talks to me about … he drinks. He’s a 22-year-old kid. I don’t think problematically, I’ve never seen that. He goes out and he rips it up with his friends, and does what a lot of 22-year olds are doing. But I feel confident, or at least I would hope that if he would need anything or would’ve any questions. He could go to me, he could go to Mike, he could go to our sister. My sister could put him in touch with people, I mean, we got this whole family. And our sister’s a normie, by the way. But we got this whole family of people that can help anyone if they need it, which is really cool.

David:

Very, very cool. I’ve got another piece-

Mike:

Looking at the clock.

David:

I got another … yeah, so where are we at with the clock? I mean, I got another little piece in the story.

Bill:

Well, do you want to-

Mike:

David’s got another piece of the story. What we’re going to do is we’re going to take a quick break here and we’re going to get back to his little piece of the story right after this word from our sponsor.

Bill:

Hey everyone, it’s your friends at Sober Not Mature.

Mike:

Hi there.

Bill:

Yes, it’s both of your friends this time. Hi Mike. How are you?

Mike:

I’m well, how are you, Bill?

Bill:

I am doing well. But we do have a purpose. We actually usually talk about our one website, but we actually have two websites now. So-

Mike:

Two?

Bill:

Two websites in one. All right, so everyone knows we still have the podcast website, that is www.sobernotmature.com. And we just launched the store website, so we also have that, do you know what the website address is on that one, Mike?

Mike:

Of course, I don’t.

Bill:

It’s pretty easy, Mike. It’s www.sobernotmatureshop.com. But from the podcast website, you can still hit the store link and get into the web store. Or you can access it from our Instagram page through the highlights. We’ve been posting quite a bit about it and we’ll continue to do that. But do you know what’s on the second website, Mike?

Mike:

Well, there’s a store. There are products that you can purchase for you and your loved ones.

Bill:

Well, Mike, do we still have merchandise?

Mike:

We have merchandise. Well, we got t-shirts and coffee mugs and all kinds of crap.

Bill:

And one of the coolest parts, we also do have all the recovery books from Hazelden, which is kind of a big deal.

Mike:

That is a big deal.

Bill:

At least for us. So all the books that we read, God Grant Me, 24 Hours, The Big Book, The Twelve and Twelve, all of those books are available for sale on our website. And-

Mike:

They are.

Bill:

Once again, that store website is www.sober-

Mike:

Dot. I’m trying to help, man.

Bill:

I know you are, you’re not helping though. Okay, now I got to say www.sobernotmatureshop.com.

Mike:

Dot com.

Bill:

Dot com. Visit that today or visit the podcast website, which is again, you know the podcast website.

Mike:

Www.soberbutnotmature.com.

Bill:

Did you just say sober but not mature?

Mike:

Yeah, sure. Write that down.

Bill:

Yeah, like fucking mush mouth or something.

All right, everyone, you’ve suffered enough with this. And we’ll get back to what we were talking about previously. So visit the websites, though.

All right, everyone, welcome back. And now onto the other piece of the story with David. Yeah, that was a good one. It was one of those things where it’s like either you could have continued it or I thought that was a good place to take a break anyhow. So, yeah, sorry about that, David. But yeah, by all means, go through. We got plenty of time. Tell us your story.

David:

So I mentioned what it was like. I was adopted at birth and it took 60 years and it took nine years of recovery and about five years of therapy work for me to get to a point where I wasn’t codependent with my mother, and wasn’t worried about her response of my looking for my birth mother.

And so when I turned 60, I applied to Alberta Adoption Records for my file. I actually did it in person and they couldn’t give me my whole file, but they did give me my birth certificate. And I was named Baby Ridley, and my mother had requested all of her information be removed. And so in my birth certificate, all of her name is blacked out, all of her information is blacked out and there’s no information on the father. But my name is my name and it’s not my mother’s name. Well, it is my mother’s name, but it’s not her name, if you know what I mean. It’s my information. So it was not blacked out. And I was able through … when I eventually got my file and then help of a counselor in Edmonton, who’s helped like 3,500 birth parents and adoptees reunite over the last 40 years. I found out who my birth mother was.

Bill:

Nice.

David:

And five years ago, I had a very, very short conversation with her. It basically was, I’d tried a few times then finally got her on the phone. And I explained who I was and her first response was, “I have no idea what you’re talking about.” So-

Mike:

Of course.

David:

Denial. Then I explained how I got the file from Alberta Adoptions Records and figured it out. And she said, “those damn people, they never should have given you anything.“ So blame about that thing that 60 seconds ago she said she knew nothing about. And then she said, “I want nothing to do with you.” And just complete rejection, which I understand was not rejecting me because she doesn’t even know who I am. Although I experienced that it was rejection, I got to tell you.

And the loss of being given away at birth. And to be able to experience that as an adult in some form and then re-parent myself and work through it. Which I did really … it was on a Sunday morning, I talked to her and I went for a really long walk by myself and I talked to my sponsor and I talked to my coach, and eventually Karalee called me a couple hours later, and she met me downtown. And I really was pretty much whole, as I could be in the day. But I tell my birth mother, I knew who one of my sisters were, her daughter, my half sister. And that I’d be reaching out to her and she said, “I don’t want you to do that.” And I said, I can appreciate that, but I’m letting you know I’m going to do that. It was part of the coaching I got from this counselor.

Mike:

All right.

David:

Because most birth moms, when they know the secret’s going to come out, they break down a little and start cracking open the door. That did not happen in my case. So anyways, I reached out to my older maternal sister and she has a blog and I had a contact form and I filled it out, gave a really three paragraph, carefully worded message. And about 10 days later, I got a beautiful welcoming letter. It happened to come as an email, but really it was a letter welcoming me to the Ridley family.

Bill:

That’s cool.

Mike:

Very cool.

Bill:

That’s very cool.

David:

And I become close friends with Wendy and Nancy.

Bill:

Very cool.

David:

And I become close friends with Wendy and Nancy.

Mike:

Nice.

David:

And I since learned that Terry, my birth mom, is an alcoholic, that I have a half-brother Gary, who died in 2015 of liver disease as the direct result of his alcoholism. So my adoptive parents, I don’t think are alcoholics, but my birth mother clearly was. And in April, my sister called me and said, “Terry’s just been admitted to the hospital and she’s got brain cancer, and they are giving her maybe a week to live.” And that was a Saturday morning. I flew out to Calgary, which is where I was conceived, and where still some of my maternal family live. And on a Monday afternoon and Tuesday morning, my aunt, my uncle, my two sisters called me and invited me to the hospital room where my birth mother was still alive, but unconscious. So she couldn’t order me out of the room. But the point there is that the whole family wanted me to be there. Talk about the opposite of rejection. Talk about acceptance.

And two hours later, Terry stopped breathing. And I don’t know, five or 10 minutes later, we all hugged each other in a lot of tears. Me too. And then my uncle Jim said, “Hey, David, do you want a picture with Terry?” And my internal response was, “no fucking way.” And my loving parent said to myself, “You will never have an opportunity to have a picture with Terry ever again.” And so I got him to take the picture. I’m not the most smiling, happy person in that picture, but then, my birth mother just died.

Mike:

Right. But it exists. Right. You have that whatever kind of connection there. Yeah.

David:

And on the weekend, my uncle had asked me to record a video to my birth mother in case he had a chance to show it to her while she was still alive. And I did. And I sent it to my sister and my uncle, my uncle said he cried for 20 minutes when he watched it. It was a very emotional video. It was really from the heart. And before I got to the hospital on the Tuesday morning, my sister told me that she played the video to Terry. And she said, “I think she needed to hear it, and I know that you needed me to play it” And how perceptive, how supportive and to be able to have the full experience of the emotion of this through the gift of sobriety.

Mike:

Absolutely. Right. Yeah, because Christ, if you were still drinking, none of this would’ve happened.

David:

And the day after, my uncle and my sisters went to my birth mother’s place and a bottle of rye in the cupboard and 12 bottles of rye in a box in the closet. So I wondered if she was an alcoholic up to the end. And I think the answer is yes. Normal people don’t keep a full box of Canadian club rye in the closet.

Bill:

Well, and what Mike’s just said too is that if you were still drinking you never would’ve went through that process. Or if you did, it would’ve went horribly. I can only imagine. But in-

David:

I don’t know if I could imagine it.

Bill:

Right, but just you know that one way or the other, all the opportunities that we have, if we would’ve even gotten to these opportunities but threw alcohol on top of them, we just would’ve fucked them all up like we did all the other things. So I think that even though, again, the beginning of the story and her not wanting to have anything to do with you, but then being a part of the expanded family and then having those final moments and things with her. Again, whatever this perfect vision is of what somebody thinks that whole process should have been probably wasn’t perfect, but you were able to experience, and I think you put it perfectly that all the emotions that you got to go through, and now you have all that, and you have all of it because you’re sober, which is just still all these things, man. The good things, the bad things, the tragedies and the triumphs. We get to experience all of them and with a clear head, which is pretty cool.

David:

And to do things, like I’m just back from a massive trip which is why we’re recording this now rather than back when I first reached out to you, because I was gone for four weeks. We went to Istanbul, and then we went to Jordan and did a group tour for 12 days. And I don’t know, I’m in the van. We’re driving through Jordan, and I just remembered. And now I tend to take it for granted, but I wanted to do these kinds of adventures before, but would not do them because I couldn’t drink enough.

I would not have done that Jordan trip, like a small group tour where you’re quite intimate with another group, would’ve been no opportunity to have hidden all the alcohol I would’ve needed to drink. You can drink in Jordan, but I wouldn’t have been able to acquire enough and hide it and do all the things that I do did as an alcoholic. So I would’ve just said no to the trip. Just like in 2011, I trekked up to Annapurna Base Camp in Nepal in the Himalayas. And same thing, a good friend of mine, that was her 13th or 14th trip that she had led. And I’d known about it for years and years and wanted to do it for years and years. And I just couldn’t do it because there was no booze.

Now it’s so easy to just forget. I denied myself all these things. And then a couple years after that with her husband, I was able to sail across the Atlantic Ocean from the Canary Islands to Barbados. Again, I’d wanted to sail across an ocean for decades and couldn’t do it because no captain would agree to bring on board enough booze and to drink that much. So it was a dream, but it was a non-starter. Until I got sober.

Mike:

Exactly. Right. Well, yes, being a slave sucks. You can’t do what you want to do.

David:

But I sometimes forget these gifts that I’m living. I need to still remind myself and go back about, this is what I get by living a sober life and I have these opportunities. And now I don’t think about saying yes to them because I can’t drink. I just say, “Yeah, let’s do this.”

Mike:

Right. Yeah. Freedom. It’s a beautiful thing.

David:

It is really, really incredible.

Bill:

Well, and Mike and I actually talk about that all the time, and I’ll just speak for myself probably, maybe even more than him, but there are plenty of times that I, and it sounds so stupid when I say it out loud, but I forget to be grateful even for, like I said, grateful for even the tragedies. If somebody passes or somebody’s sick or something weird happens to me, whatever the case is, being grateful for the fact that I have the ability now to experience those things and fully and just deal with every emotion, but just the daily things. My kids, my family. I’m a relatively healthy human being. Taking a drive anywhere, sitting by a pond, I don’t know, talking with a friend, doing this.

And that might even seem silly, but Mike and I have been doing this for a year and, what, three months or something like that, right, Mike? And it’s not been an even mix of guests and whatever for the number of episodes, like a half and half. But we’ve gotten to hear amazing stories. Mike and I, we’ve known each other since we first got sober, but we’ve actually told stories that each one of us hadn’t heard before. Or if nothing else, we’re having these conversations. And now we’re having not just random people, but our families, our kids, these people that are really close to us in our lives listening. We’re able to share those things. But then these random human beings, normies and everything like that that are just …

Again, we’re able to try to just get this stuff out there. And it’s an opportunity for us to verbally share that gratitude, even if we’re not doing it on a daily basis. Once a week, every Friday we get to get on here and get honest. And that’s not always the easiest thing for … It doesn’t matter whether you’ve been sober for three minutes or 30 years. For us people, it’s not always the easiest thing to just be open and honest. And I’m grateful that I have that opportunity today.

David:

I want to thank you for having the podcast, for sharing your experience of strength and hope, for being willing every Friday to get together and do this. It’s a big commitment, and I know you’re helping people.

Bill:

Well, and we appreciate that. And the thing of it is, and I think you listened to the episode about shooting our wad into the wind, right? I think you mentioned that?

David:

Right, I did.

Bill:

So that was the middle of the road episode, the six month episode. And we talked very openly about what our expectations were up to that point. And that’s where that thing came in, because Mike, and it’s part of our opening now because it was funny, but it’s really very true, is we just shoot our wad into the wind and see what happens. And that’s literally what we did. We pieced all of this stuff together. It was an idea. It was, again, probably our egotism. We can fucking do this. We can get on some microphone and just fucking talk and tell stories. But then we started off on our phones, that’s the audio on our beginning of our episodes. We say it enough, it’s crappy, but I think there’s some really good stories in those first 20 episodes because that’s when we had all these things to talk about and we was just getting into it and it was cool. But we had no-

David:

And raw and honest.

Bill:

Yeah. We had no idea what we were doing. And it showed, but I think that added to, and I hate to say this, but it probably added to the charm of what was coming out of our mouths is because we had no freaking idea of what we were doing. And even to this day we don’t …

Mike:

I was going to say, man, you’re implying that we know what we’re doing now.

Bill:

Well, I was going to say, even to this day, all that we’ve gotten is we’ve gotten in a habit of doing things possibly wrong. And we’ve got better audio. We’ve got a great studio out here that we paid a little bit of money for. So all it is, and Mike, you say it best all the time, the same shit, but better audio.

Mike:

Absolutely.

Bill:

But Mike-

David:

I have a belief that we often do our best work when we don’t have an effin clue what we’re doing.

Bill:

Right. Yeah.

David:

Because we don’t know what we’re doing, so we just go out there and we just try. And another thing, as a professional coach, I think we learn very little from our successes. What we learn tremendously from are our failures.

Mike:

Absolutely.

Bill:

Oh, absolutely.

David:

And people, they don’t realize that or they lose sight of that.

Mike:

And plus, as addicts and alcoholics, we tend to overthink everything.

David:

You think?

Mike:

Yeah, I do. It’s one of my problems. But because of this program, I have simplified things so much that I tend not to think. It’s go from the gut, go from the heart, and just listen to that little voice in my head saying, this is right. This feels right. It must be right. Left to my own devices, I can rationalize and justify anything. I could sit there and take 10 minutes and make the wrongest thing in the world. If that’s a word.

Bill:

You just made it one.

Mike:

I did. And make it right in my head. But if I actually listen to my heart and listen to my conscience and do what I’m supposed to do, it feels right. Therefore, it is right.

David:

I’m trying to listen less to the little voice in my head and listen a lot harder to the little voice in my heart.

Mike:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Bill:

Well, and that’s a huge thing. I just had a situation, and we’ll probably talk about it next week in more detail, but something that was presented to me in a work situation, and it was a change. I was trying to present things a certain way, and it was something that was asked of me and whatever it was, but the counteroffer, I guess I’ll call, it irritated me, but then it just didn’t feel right. So I said no. And it’s probably something that even, I don’t know, even five years ago, still sober at that time, but even five years ago, I might have said yes, and I thought about it. I’m like, no, I don’t need to. If it doesn’t feel right.

That’s one of the things that thankfully to this day, whatever time it is right now, but I have yet to drink or anything like that in the last 13 plus years. But part of the reason for that is we were taught very early on that if it doesn’t feel right, don’t do it. Or if it feels weird, leave. If you’re uncomfortable, make a change. Go in a different direction. Especially if you’re in a place, if you start to feel a little itchy, then you need to walk out. Something’s not right.

But the same thing, Mike just said it perfectly. You can figure out the wrong things, what’s wrong by doing that, but also the things that are like, man, this feels right. Everything lines up. You go talk to a couple of people about it, throw it through the absolutes. Right, Mike? How can we go wrong after that? So it’s wonderful to be able to have that, and I’ll go back to it again, that clarity to be able to do these things.

David:

In my work with entrepreneurs as a professional coach, so I’m not a sobriety coach, I’m a business coach who just happens to be sober and know what it’s like. So as a owner entrepreneur, especially in high-end sales, to close the sale, you’re expected to go with the senior leadership team of the other company, not always, but often, and have a big dinner and drink a ton of stuff. And so we’re taught to leave any situation where you’re uncomfortable and you’ve got a four or $5 million deal riding on this dinner. It’s really hard for you to leave. But you can always make sure you have a water and you can still excuse yourself and go call your sponsor.

Part of my coaching is giving people tools that let them live in that environment and still be able to look after themselves. And whether it’s networking events, whether it’s sales event, and also to really normalize that it’s the other people’s … I have a client who’s, I think, a normie, he’s a super high end company, massive sales, and he came back from a trip and they’d had a dinner and he said, “Everybody had at least two drinks before dinner, and then we drank a bottle of wine per person.” I’m like, “Yeah?” “Do you think that’s alcoholic?” And I go, “Yeah.”

I said, “Did you take a break any time and have a round of water?” “No.” And I said, “But that’s just normalized.” It’s still alcoholic drinking. And the thing in society and in business, in certain aspects of business, it’s so normalized. Again, we have to justify why we’re not drinking. If I say, “I’m not going to eat a banana,” no one says, “Oh, why are you not eating a banana? What’s wrong with you? Is there something wrong with bananas?” No one asks you that. But you say, “Oh, I’m not going to have a drink.” “Well, what’s wrong with you? Well, here, let me get you a drink.” That’s usually the first response, especially if they have issues with alcohol.

Bill:

Let’s come back to that in a minute. Mike, I heard a “mm” over there when he said alcoholic drinking, so let’s go back to that. You had a point.

Mike:

Right. Well just that, but they may have done that night, but then they got up the next morning and they shaved and they did what they had to do. I wouldn’t do that. I would keep going and keep going. Well, I did and never stopped. So I have a problem. Yes, they drank too much and whatever. And that’s fine. I have a problem saying people are alcoholics. Only I can say I’m an alcoholic. Nobody can call me an alcoholic. I was an alcoholic because I drank all the time and I couldn’t stop on my own. Yes, they drank a lot in that situation. And they might be an alcoholic, but they might not. I don’t like-

David:

The language I used, I was very careful not to call them alcoholics. I said they drank alcoholically. And if you looked at the NIAAA in the US definition of heavy drinking and the probability of heavy drinking being an indicator of substance or …

Mike:

Addictive personality.

David:

Addictive. Yeah.

Mike:

Sure.

David:

Then they qualify.

Mike:

Sure.

David:

So again, I’m not saying that anyone was, I am saying to have seven drinks each in a row in a single session …

Mike:

Well, the-

David:

… is alcoholic drinking.

Mike:

The big book describes it perfectly for me. Bill talks about, yes, heavy drinkers, they drink “alcoholically” quote, unquote. But given sufficient reason, they can stop on their own. That’s the difference. That’s the difference. And most people who exhibit that behavior can stop on their own. I can’t.

Bill:

Yep.

David:

Yeah, totally.

Mike:

That’s all.

Bill:

So then back to what you were saying, David, too, being at the social events and things like that. And I agree because I was part of … I’ve been in sales positions and all those different things, networking things and conferences since I was in my early 20s. So certainly long before I quit drinking. And then after I quit drinking, I’ve gone to golf outings. I’ve been to events like that. I’ve been to weddings. The weddings I’ve been to have been family events where people knew my deal. Most of them did, but not everyone. And then I’ve been to plenty of work events and things like that.

And here’s the thing is that I never felt pressured to drink. I felt I had an obligation based on my position with the organization to be at that function that happened to be at the bar in the hotel for a certain amount of time. And somebody’s like, “Hey, can I grab you a drink?” And I’m like, “Nah, I’ll just grab a soda.” That’s my answer. Or somebody’s like, “Do you want something to drink?” And I’m like, “Sure. I’ll take a diet Coke” or “I’ll grab myself a water.”

I don’t say no, and I never say I don’t drink unless somebody says, “You don’t drink?” I’m like, “No.” And then you see the look on their face. And if somebody says, “Really?” Or “Why?” which most people don’t follow up. But if they do, I’ll just say, “It’s a health choice.” Because in my head, two things. I know that nobody’s going to argue with you and say, “Well, you shouldn’t be healthy. You realize that, right?” Nobody’s going to say that, number one. But if somebody pushed beyond that, which again, in 13 plus years, nobody’s pushed beyond that point. They can think whatever they want and I don’t care. But if they push beyond that point, I would’ve been just … I don’t know what I’d do. I’d probably just walk away or tell them to fuck off and walk away if I had that ability.

But the whole point with that is that I think that, and I’m going to use your word, own your behavior, but I’ll use it the other one. When I walk into things like that, I walk in and I do it on purpose because it’s walking into, I don’t know, maybe, and I’ve never been in prison, thank God, but if I went into prison either realizing you’re going to have to kick the shit out of the biggest guy in the prison, or acting like you own the place. Acting like you belong. You just go up there and get your shit and nobody bothers you.

So I try to carry that type of attitude where I know I would not have felt comfortable doing that. I avoided some work events and things like that in the first probably three years that I was sober, because I knew that I wouldn’t be comfortable, so I just didn’t go.

David:

Good for you.

Bill:

That’s part of that thing too is being, I finally got to the point where I’m comfortable enough in my skin and I’m confident that I don’t want to drink. So I just go in there and I just do my shit. And rarely have I ever been asked. I’ve had a couple of people just say, “I didn’t know you didn’t drink.” I’m like, “No.” They’re like, “Oh, okay.” And they go on and they pound whatever they got in their mouth. Because that’s the thing. Right, Mike? People don’t give a shit about what we’re doing.

Mike:

They really don’t.

David:

I would say the occasional times I’ve had more pushback or more kind of questioning. It’s almost always someone who in the end has some issue with alcohol. They may not be heavy drinkers, but maybe they’re … they may not have the heavy drinkers, but maybe their parents were.

Bill:

Right.

David:

Somewhere in their close circle is an issue with alcohol.

Bill:

Yeah.

Mike:

Right.

David:

Which generally is what’s making them really reactive around that behavior. And again, it’s like, “It’s their issue, not mine.”

Mike:

Right.

David:

And as I was coached by my sponsors, because I’ve had multiple sponsors early on, is never go into a situation without an exit point.

Bill:

Oh, yeah.

Mike:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Bill:

I mean, we talk about that endlessly, and it’s hugely important.

David:

Oh, it’s so important. Right? Take your little card.

Mike:

Of course, my line now is I’ll be out at a social function or whatever, and somebody will ask me, and I’ll look at them in the eye, I’ll look over at the bar and go, “They don’t have enough.” And it usually shuts them down.

Bill:

See, he goes the other direction, but then again, it works for him. And that’s the thing, whatever works. And I just know listening, again to podcasts and all those sorts of things, people get really hung up on the fact of, “What do I say if,” and I was to be begin with. And then I think that it was Phyllis, Mike, that told me, she was one of the people who ran the Keating Center, which was the sober living facility we went through in Cleveland, I think she’s the one that mentioned that the health situation, or the health thing.

Mike:

Right.

David:

Yeah.

Bill:

And I’ve used that, and it works. It was a crutch for me to begin with, but I’ll be honest with you, I can’t even remember the last time that it’s even got to that question. Because when somebody says, “Do you want something to drink?” I say, “Yes,” and I tell them what I want. And I’ll just say, “Oh.” Or, “No, I got a soda,” or, “I’ll grab a soda,” or, “What type of coffee do you guys have?” Or whatever the deal is. And it just shoots them off into that direction. But then again, I’m choosy about where I go. I’m not just going to go… I don’t hang out in bars by myself. I don’t go to CD nightclubs, or hang out in weird places. So I mean, I know my surroundings, first of all, which is probably part of it.

But yeah, I think it’s just, again, owning your behavior, David, that’s what I think we should do. But I want you to… Well, not what I want to do. I’d love to hear about it, a little bit more about your business, because we want to have that opportunity. We’ve talked to the outskirts of your coaching and what you do from a business standpoint. This is an opportunity, if you’d like to let everyone know what you do, where they can find you, anything you want to do, get your name out there a little bit.

David:

Sure. So I work exclusively with… Entrepreneurs are super high energy, high performing individuals. Sometimes I work with salespeople who need to build really big books of business, and they’re, basically, entrepreneurs within a much bigger organization. I’ve got a client that’s a five time Olympian. And at some point, they’re stuck or need help. And especially entrepreneurs, because I’ve got this 40 plus year track record, I’ve got a big, big toolbox that I can bring to the table.

But what I really tell people is, if you think maybe you want to have a coach is, “I’m always open to having an hour long coaching call with someone at no charge. So just come to me with something that’s really challenging you, or you don’t know what to do about in your business, and we’ll work through it in a call. And at the end, my goal is always to make sure you’ve got at least direction on what the next right step is.”

Bill:

Okay.

David:

We quite likely haven’t solved it all, because you rarely solve it all in a one hour call.

Mike:

Do you ever really solve everything all the way?

David:

No. And you don’t in business.

Bill:

Right.

David:

Right?

Mike:

Right.

David:

Business is constantly changing, malleable, and the whole idea that it’s all figured out is a non-starter, which might be something you need coaching on.

Mike:

Right.

David:

Just saying.

Mike:

I know I sure did.

Bill:

Let me ask you this, because I’ll be honest with you, and I know roughly what our demographic is, and it’s all over the place. It’s men, it’s women, it’s different age groups, and things like that. I have zero idea what people do for a living. Quite honestly, don’t care, our followers on Instagram, or who listen to us, what they do for a living. But if somebody, for instance, and what it sounds like is you deal with more of the higher level type of individuals in bigger business, but, to your point, if somebody comes to you and they’re like, “Okay,” they sit down with you for this hour phone call and you realize that maybe you don’t really fit with them completely or they don’t fit with you completely, I’m guessing, but I’m just guessing, do you have a network of people that you could say, “Hey, go talk to Sally down the road,” or, “Dave over here, or John.”

David:

Yeah.

Bill:

Okay.

David:

And new people, “I’d really love for you to talk to four other coaches.”

Bill:

Okay.

David:

I want you to pick the coach who you relate to the most and who you feel like you have the most trust with. And if that’s me, fantastic.

Bill:

Right.

David:

If it’s one of two or three other people, fantastic. That is way more important to me. I mean, if it’s really off kilter, I won’t even offer to coach them. I’ll just say, “Well, good luck with that, and if you really are stuck with it as you go forward, give me a call.”

Bill:

Right.

David:

Whereas, if I think we related to each other on the call, I’ll say, “I think we could work well together. What do you think?”

Bill:

Okay.

David:

But again, it’s always the client’s call every time.

Bill:

Right.

David:

It’s the same as-

Mike:

It sounds very much like sponsorship.

David:

It is.

Bill:

I was just going to say the same thing.

David:

There’s parallels. And I’ll often… I’ll challenge clients about their thinking, about their belief system. But if they want to stick with where they’re at, that’s fine, I go elsewhere. I’m not… Their view is their view. It doesn’t make my view better than theirs. It just makes mine different. And same if they’re really struggling with something, but you can see a path forward. I’ll say, “Are you willing to commit to doing X?” And it’s up to them. If they say, “No, I’m not,” okay. Then-

Mike:

It sounds exactly like sponsorship.

Bill:

Right. Right.

David:

So I’ll say, “Well, what would you like to do about it?”

Mike:

Yeah.

David:

Most of the magic in coaching happens between sessions. Because I raised the issues, but it’s really what you do between sessions and the kind of thinking… Especially when I first worked with Coach Kevin, I tell you, some of his boot marks in my ass, I didn’t feel for a good 24 or 48 hours, and then they hurt. But he was very… It just took a while for it all to sink in, and then to really, “Oh, shit.”

Bill:

Right.

David:

Right?

Bill:

Well, and you have, like Mike was just saying, and as you were explaining all this, honestly, Mike, I was thinking the same thing, I’m like, “That does.” Because we… All of us want, from the sobriety standpoint, all of us want people to get sober and stay sober if that’s what they choose. They may not want to follow the path that we followed. You could get somebody that’s going into a 12 step thing, but they have a little bit different sideline thought to what we do, so they’re better served over here than there.

And that’s why I asked that question about… I figured, I mean, you’ve been around this thing long enough from the business side of things, I figured you’d have a network of people that you could say, “Okay, I think this person could be able to help you.” Or I like that fact of… That’s a great, in my opinion from a business standpoint, and I’ve always liked the idea, is challenging people to interview other businesses, or other coaches, whatever you do. It gives people that freedom that, number one, they don’t feel pressured by it. And not everyone’s going to say that to them. You know?

David:

Yeah.

Bill:

Everyone else out there is probably pressuring them, like “You know, that David guy, he gave me a little bit of space,” and it might bring somebody back to you also. It’s a great way to, I think, handle yourself in life, but I think in a business standpoint, that’s got to play pretty well too.

David:

Yeah. And the software company that I joined, when I was still at university and was 22 years old, I mean, people would call us and say, “We have this technical problem.” And oftentimes, we would refer them to, well, we were friends with most of the other vendors in the space, but we’d say, “You need to go to talk to Terry at Omni so-and-so, because they’ll solve your problem.”

Bill:

Right.

David:

“We don’t have the right solutions to your problem.” And I knew that if you had the problem that they were going to solve for you, eventually you would need our stuff anyway.

Bill:

Right.

David:

It’s like it was a symptom of you having too much data for the computer system that you had. But it’s just how you want it, where the pain point was showing up the most for you. It’s like right now, you need their solution, and I’m pretty certain that it’s going to cause a different pain point down the road, and you’ll probably come back to us. And they would come back to us, because we didn’t screw them around. We didn’t try and sell them something they didn’t need.

Bill:

Right.

David:

And same, we would send them a trial tape. I mean, this isn’t today, like you’d send a physical thing so you could load it on the computer. And we’d say, “Use it for 30 days,” or, “Help us work through with you your three most critical reports.” And our thing was with something that could make them 10 times faster. And if we don’t make them fast enough, then don’t buy a product.

Bill:

Right.

David:

And it wasn’t a plug and play. They had to do some work to get the benefits. So if they weren’t willing to play, then you also know they weren’t a serious prospect, or they weren’t ready. Right?

Mike:

Right.

David:

So rather than pushing, it’s like, “Well, when you’re ready to actually engage with us and really solve this problem, we’re here for you.” So we engendered this whole… We were known in the community for being straight shooters and of high integrity and selling really high quality stuff. Because we always just tried to solve the problem for them or refer them to the person who could.

Bill:

Right.

David:

And that reputation carried us, literally, for more than 20 plus years.

Mike:

Yeah. It’s more in the case of Alcoholics Anonymous, 88 years.

David:

Yes. Exactly.

Bill:

Yeah.

David:

Exactly.

Mike:

Seriously, I’m sitting here, because this is not my world at all, but I’m sitting here listening to all this and going, “This is the fucking program.”

Bill:

Right.

David:

Yeah.

Bill:

Yeah. Yeah, and it’s just-

Mike:

“When you’re ready, when you’re ready to do the work, we’re here for you.”

David:

And instead of a big book, it’s just, I’ve got a toolkit of either books, or frameworks, or people I can refer you to.

Mike:

Right.

David:

“Oh, you’re really stuck with that problem, hey, I know this person. You should talk to them.”

Mike:

Exactly.

David:

“Hire them, because I don’t have that level of expertise in that particular niche that you’re really stuck in.”

Mike:

Right. Yeah.

David:

“Go work with them for a while.” And I probably am still coaching them through the whole thing.

Mike:

Yeah.

David:

Because they’ll hire them for some very specialized thing and go solve that, and then I just check in with them. “Is that going the way you think? Is the person as expert as you thought?” And just helping manage expectations and making sure it’s going well.

And the way I usually structure it is, for one-on-one coaching, I do two calls a month. One call a month can keep someone kind of at a good level and sustain them there. But if they want to change and grow, then you need two calls a month. So two, one hour calls a month. So that’s how I frame it and charge you a monthly fee for that. And I’m also available for emergency calls. I have five minute instant coaching to get you unstuck anytime that you’re stuck, which I have had clients take advantage of.

Bill:

Well, that’s kind of cool. So-

David:

And then the other practice areas I facilitate is strategic planning. So that’s for bigger companies or people with really high ambition. And we go offsite for two days to build an annual plan, and then go offsite one day a quarter. And that’s always with the entrepreneur and their senior leadership team. So we’re working, the whole group is working together to build this plan. And I have a particular framework that I think is the best in the world for high growth mid-tier companies that I specialize in and use with these clients. And the reason it’s every quarter, there’s thinking behind all of the reasons for doing that way. And if a client’s not willing to commit to that, to a year of that, then I say, “That’s fine, but we’re not a good fit.”

Mike:

So after a year, we’ll timely refund your misery.

Bill:

Right.

David:

Yes. Exactly. And that’s priced differently. It’s still coaching, it’s really much more facilitation, which is a kind of specialized form of coaching.

Bill:

Sure. Well-

David:

So those are my two principle practice areas.

Bill:

And with, what I was doing, the promos this week and what I do the description and the promos for the episode clips, because, again, I know you’ve been following us, so you see that I do episode clips every day.

David:

You do.

Bill:

And I will put-

David:

You do.

Bill:

I have your Instagram handle I’ll put in there, and I also had your website address in there.

David:

Yeah.

Bill:

The one thing, obviously, with Instagram is, obviously, the websites are not clickable in a description, but your website’s on your Instagram page, if I’m not mistaken. Correct?

David:

And you can DM me in Instagram.

Bill:

Right. Yeah.

David:

And I’ll get back to you. So you can do that.

Bill:

Yeah. That’s what I always try to do is make sure that any contact information we have for people that we have on is in that description. So obviously, it’s not just in the Instagram post, but also, if anyone’s listening to this on any podcast and they look in the description, they’re going to be able to see how to get ahold of you. Which, once again, I mean, we enjoy obviously looking at everything that happened to people and how they got sober and the solution, as Mike had said to begin with, but we also want to help people out. If there’s a opportunity for us to help you push your business a little bit, why the hell not, right?

David:

I appreciate it.

Bill:

Yeah.

David:

And I appreciate all of the promos that you’ve been doing on Instagram. As you’ve noticed, I’ve been trying to share those as best I can.

Bill:

Yeah. And what I’ll do too, and what I usually do with the episode clips, I’ll list you as a collaborator, which will make it easier. If you want, if you accept that, it’ll post it automatically on your page also. So yeah, that gives you an opportunity.

David:

Oh, okay.

Bill:

But I’ve gotten in a rhythm of sorts with how I post things. And to go all the way back to what you were talking about with what we were talking about with our morning things, I post a reading every morning on Instagram, and that’s now part of my process. And it’s kind of like you said, I think your grand sponsor, you said, that does all those readings, it gets them out to people.

David:

Yeah.

Bill:

I started doing it years ago on another platform, but then I’ve been doing it on Instagram. And seriously, that’s part of… I commit to doing that. That’s the first post I do every single day, every single morning. And I get that post out there, and I put it, always a link to the book. Because we sell all the Hazelden books, so I always put a link to what book it was in. And it’s important to me. And I’ve gotten a lot of… We get decent feedback from doing that. People… A lot of-

David:

I enjoy it. I’ve been reading, I won’t say I’ve read every one, but the majority, I read, and they’re great.

Bill:

And again, we’re limited a little bit with Instagram, nine times out of 10, it’s, well, certainly not the entire reading. That’s why I put a clip to where the book is.

David:

Yeah.

Bill:

I mean, people don’t have to buy the book. They can look up any of these things online. I’m not trying to say that we’re the only place where you can buy a Hazelden book. But we’re kind of proud of the fact that we’re actually an authorized retailer for Hazelden. That was kind of, as we say, a big deal. Right, Mike?

Mike:

Yeah.

Bill:

And we’re-

Mike:

Let’s not Forget the Dick jokes.

Bill:

Yeah. And then, yeah, you see all those too, David. So yeah, we mix in.

David:

I was sharing them with my daughter-in-law just before our call.

Mike:

That makes me happy.

David:

She said, “David, you don’t quite talk like this.”

Bill:

How old’s your daughter?

David:

I said, “Yeah, but they’re still really funny.”

Bill:

How old is your daughter-in-law? I’m just trying to see if this fits in within our demo… Okay.

David:

26.

Bill:

And here’s the weird part. So I’m 54, Mike is 50… Are you 50? God-damn, you are.

Mike:

Six.

Bill:

I was going to say 56. I’m like, “Shit.”

Mike:

Yeah, I’m old.

Bill:

So Mike’s 56. But the majority on Instagram, God, I think it’s 30%, it’s almost 60% are female. That’s number one. And then, which again blows both of our minds with some of the shit that I post. But on top of that, it’s, again, Instagram followers are between that 24 to 35, maybe 44 range, like 60% or within that range, which, again, blows my mind. Now, our podcast is a little bit differently, at least from the… We only get true statistics from Spotify, but I think we’ve got a higher listener base on the Apple side of things. I just haven’t been able to draw the complete statistics. But that’s the reason I ask what her age is. And she’s right in the middle of it, which it blows my mind. Why would a 26-year-old female want to listen to this, or follow us on Instagram? It’s baffling, but it’s fine.

David:

Well, in this case, it’s because I’m her father-in-law.

Bill:

Right. No, I know. I know.

David:

And I’m going to be on-

Bill:

I know. I know.

Mike:

Right.

David:

… your podcast.

Bill:

Yeah. But it’s just weird. I mean, yeah.

David:

But I get it. Yeah.

Bill:

It’s just absolutely weird. So we do. We get a nice mix of stuff. And we had Matt from another podcast, Sober Friends podcast on a couple weeks ago, and he said that, “Well, your name, the Sober Not Mature thing gives you guys quite a bit of leeway,” and he goes, “People tend to expect it.” And he goes, “You guys probably get away with more than if you had a different Instagram name.” And I’m like, “Well, we didn’t do that on purpose, but yeah, I guess it does fit well.”

Mike:

Yeah.

David:

It worked out.

Bill:

It did. Yes.

Mike:

Program of Honesty.

Bill:

Exactly. It is freaking honest, that’s for damn sure. But yeah. So David, I mean, this has been a lot of fun. I mean, intriguing on all levels. I mean, I appreciate you, obviously, taking the time to come on. Before we wrap up, anything that you’d like to share, any wrap up thoughts? Anything at all that you either missed or want to stress on? Anything before we wrap up?

David:

Number one thing I stress is, if you’re suffering today, there’s a solution. There’s help. And in my experience, you can’t do it alone.

Bill:

Perfect. And we feel that way too, Mike.

Mike:

Yeah.

Bill:

Right, Mike?

Mike:

Absolutely.

Bill:

Okay. So here, I ask everyone this question, have you listened through an entire episode to hear the ending of our episode yet, David?

David:

I did, the one that I listened to.

Bill:

Okay. So you listened to the whole, Mike’s ending? Okay, cool.

David:

Yeah. I listened to the whole way through.

Bill:

Okay, good. Well, you won’t be surprised by this. We’ve had a few people that were literally surprised by the ending. So Mike’s going to close us out on this, time for you and I to quiet up. And then, Mike, run us on out of here.

Mike:

All right. Well, thank you, everyone, for listening to another episode of Sober Not Mature. We want to thank Coach David for coming on and sharing his experience, strength, and hope. It was really cool. And as always, be kind to each other, be good to each other, do something nice for somebody else this week. And now, kids, it is that time. It is time for you to fuck off, then keep fucking off. Keep fucking off until you get to a gate with a sign on it saying, “You cannot fuck off past here.” Climb over that gate, dream the impossible dream and keep fucking off forever.

Bill:

I laugh every time, because I love it, number one. But it’s funny. We get people that approach us to be on here, and I tell them, same thing I mentioned to you, I’m like, “Have you listened? If you haven’t, you need to.” That’s number one.

David:

Yeah.

Bill:

And I’m just honest with people. I’m like, “We’re not necessarily for everyone.” But the ending part of it, it’s funny, not everyone listens to that ending. But yeah, we’ve been doing that for quite a while now. And I sit back, and I laugh to myself while he’s doing this every time. So I absolutely love it.

Mike:

Try to spread joy, people.

Bill:

Yeah, you certainly are. You’re spreading something, that’s for damn sure. All right, Mike. Mike. Well, first of all, Coach David, thank you very, very much for coming on. We truly appreciate it.

Mike:

Yeah.

Bill:

Mike, I love you, brother. And I will talk to-

Mike:

I love you too.

Bill:

… everyone later. Have a good evening.

David:

Bye, everyone.

Mike:

Bye.

Wrap Up:

As always, thank you for listening to another episode of Sober Not Mature. To access all of our content and interact with us, please visit our website sobernotmature.com. Thank you, again, for listening, and we will talk to you soon.