Duane Osterlind hosts the Addicted Mind Podcast. Duane has overcome addiction and family crisis. He draws from these experiences to help others in recovery find happiness. We covered these topics in our podcast interview:
- My story of recovery: what it was like, what happened, what it is like now.
- How entrepreneurial coach Kevin Lawrence was the first person I admitted I had a drinking problem to and how he coached me to going to 12-step recovery.
- That when on a two-year sailing adventure, I found it easy to not drink on long passages.
- The ways in which heavy drinking is normalized in the business world.
- How 12-step recovery has allowed me to witness male emotional maturity and to grow myself emotionally.
- Setting goals for your career, your life, and for yourself.
- Why self-care is so important to allow you to show up as your best in all the other areas of your life.
- Why coaches use powerful questions to help people get what they want in business and in life.
- As someone in recovery, how you deal with business and social situations where other people drink.
If you a high performing person in recovery, I think you will find value in many of these topics. If you are an entrepreneur struggling with alcohol or an entrepreneur in recovery trying to figure how to stay sober and run a high performing business, call me if you want immediate help. You can call me at +1 (604) 721-5732 or Contact Me to book a time when we can talk about your journey and how I can help.
Audio
Transcript
Duane Osterlind:
All right, everyone. Welcome to the Addicted Mind Podcast. My name’s Duane Osterlind and I’m your host. And we are onto another episode. So today our guest is David Greer and he’s going to about his own recovery journey. And specifically, from his perspective of being a successful entrepreneur and high functioning individual, where he himself had difficulty recognizing that alcohol was actually an issue for him, and how others, because of his success and his ability to be high functioning, didn’t even believe that he had a problem when asking for help. So he talks about his moment of clarity, out sailing on the Mediterranean under the stars, and how something hit him, and he realized this was a real issue for him. Really enjoyed talking with David about his story, and his genuineness, and his authenticity, and am really happy that he has decided to share his story, and in a way, as he says in the interview, break his confidentiality from the 12 step to help others. So I appreciate that he decided to come on and share his story. So I hope you enjoy it as well. And let’s go ahead and start this episode. All right, everybody. Welcome to the Addicted Mind Podcast. My guest today is David Greer and he is going to talk about recovery, and specifically, about recovery with super high performers, entrepreneurs, people who are highly driven. David, please introduce yourself.
David Greer:
Hi Duane. Thanks for having me on today. I’m David Greer. I’m in recovery for over 12 years now, but I remember it’s literally one day at a time. I can’t get very far away from remembering that I’m an alcoholic. And I’m a 40 plus year entrepreneur. And for the last six years, I’ve been a business coach and facilitator of strategic planning. So I work exclusively with entrepreneurs. And the last year I just decided to break my anonymity, right?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
And to come out publicly. I mean, I had a little bit on and off, but much more vocally that I’m in recovery and I’m really focused. I’ve focused on entrepreneurs who are running successful businesses, not startup entrepreneurs, but entrepreneurs who actually have running successful businesses and want to move it to the next level. And then, I decided I’m going to subspecialize on entrepreneurs who are struggling with alcohol or addiction, whether they’re still active, or whether just their recovery and how do I run a business and be in recovery?
Duane Osterlind:
And it all comes together, because I don’t think we can separate these things from our life. I mean, they’re all part of it.
David Greer:
They are. Although most entrepreneurs hire me for business problems or because they’re in a crisis And they’re like, “We don’t have to talk about personal issues.” And I said, “No, we don’t. We’ll only talk about things that you want to talk about. Right, right, right.”
Duane Osterlind:
Right?
David Greer:
Yeah, of course it’s going to stay there. Yeah. Right. And so within three months we’ll be talking about some aspect of their life that doesn’t involve business.
Duane Osterlind:
Awesome. So first I want to start off by getting to know you and knowing a little bit about your story, and how this unfolded for you, and being an entrepreneur, and how it looked
David Greer:
So sure. So I’ll try, and what it was like, and what happened, and what it’s like now, just a little bit of my story, both the business side and then the drinking side. So I got a degree in computer science. I joined a young software startup when I was still in fourth year at university, and I liked the place, and stayed 20 years and helped build it into a global powerhouse. And when I was in university, I was more of a binge drinker. Before I got part-time work, I was on the rugby team. That’s a good place to go drinking.
Duane Osterlind:
Definitely. Actually I played rugby too. So I know that.
David Greer:
Yeah. But I don’t think I was quite an active alcoholic. I think there was probably a point there where it could have gone either way, but there wasn’t anything to suggest I should not drink. I mean, I was adopted a birth. I grew up in a household with two parents who would have a daily drink. I do not believe they’re alcoholics.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
Right? It was just part-
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah, some people can just do that. They’re good.
David Greer:
Right. And one, and maybe dad would have a second scotch, and that’s it.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
And they could party. And they definitely would have some serious parties with drinking. But again, I’ve really looked back at that and pretty hard. And I just don’t see it as that they were alcoholics.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
And, but I did have modeled… See, the thing that I think is, I saw modeled this normalization of daily drinking.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Right.
David Greer:
So there wasn’t anything in my 20s to stop. I wasn’t a daily drinker in my early 20s, but again, it was all normalized. And then, I’m super successful. I’m 22 years old, I’m standing up in the San Jose convention floor giving my first technical paper to about 75 people.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
Right? And then that night, go out to this big gala dinner, and everybody’s just drinking wine.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
I remember meeting a guy from Hungary and he just drank me under the table.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Right.
David Greer:
And I bring that up because I think, in a lot of business, drinking is normalized in Canada, and the US, and Western Europe, period. But then in a business context, in many cases, I think it’s even more normalized. It’s the lubricant to close deals.
Duane Osterlind:
I would imagine. Yeah. I mean, it’s part of the culture. It’s what you do. It’s how you get things done when you’re working with other people.
David Greer:
Yeah. You’re trying to close a big sales deal, like in enterprise sales, and you fly down, pre COVID, you fly down to the customer city, you’re out with the key players. You maybe have your technical support team with you. I’ve talked to entrepreneurs, going to the bar, having a couple of drinks before dinner, having a bottle of wine each. Hey, that’s situational.
Duane Osterlind:
That’s normal. Yeah. Yeah.
David Greer:
And to me, so that’s there’s five drinks in a bottle of wine, and two drinks before. That’s seven drinks in one sitting, and not having anything in between. That’s, most medical people-
Duane Osterlind:
That’s a lot.
David Greer:
… you do that on a regular basis, that’s alcohol use disorder.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Yeah.
David Greer:
Right?
Duane Osterlind:
Definitely. Yeah. When you’re drinking that much, and you don’t even realize it, because you’re pouring glasses.
David Greer:
Yes. I’ve talked to entrepreneurs about this. I have one of my clients who, on his own volition… I had shared with him, I was an alcoholic and I was in recovery. And he, yeah, he said, “Yeah, I went, flew down, and we were talking about this deal, and here’s what everybody drank. What do you think?” And I said, “Oh, well this is what I think.” Right?
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
And he said, “I felt weird just asking for glasses of water.”
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah. So for you, you’re going along, you’re being successful. You’re-
David Greer:
Going to these trade shows. I’m seeing very normalized drinking, and the progressive nature of the disease just keeps… I keep progressing. When did I become a pickle instead of a cucumber? I can’t tell you exactly. What I can tell you is when my wife got pregnant with our first child, I promised to quit drinking, and that promised lasted 24 hours.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Right.
David Greer:
So she was born in July of ’89. So that would’ve been late fall of ’88. So I was definitely an alcoholic by then.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. So you started to notice… Well also, when someone says to you, “Hey, maybe you should slow down.” And you’re like, “Yeah, I’m going to do that.” And then you can’t.
David Greer:
I almost never got to that place. I was in denial for decades because I just had massive capacity to drink and not show a lot of adverse effects. My significant others still is not 1000% convinced I’m an alcoholic because her… It’s like, I’m not a brown paper bag and wear an over coat.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
I’m not a truck driver. I’m not a stumble down drunk. I don’t slur my words, I don’t fight. For my significant other, this is like I didn’t get drunk, and belligerent, and angry, which, that’s not my experience, right? It’s not what happens to me. And so for her, if you don’t have those attributes, you’re not really an alcoholic.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. You got to go really down over to that other side.
David Greer:
Yes.
Duane Osterlind:
And if you’re not on that at the side, then you don’t have an issue. I think you bring up such an important point, because I think there’s a lot of people in your situation that struggle. They know internally that, “This is not good for me and I can’t stop it.” Yet, but on the outside, they got it all together, so to speak, on the outside.
David Greer:
Right. On the outside.
Duane Osterlind:
And other people go, “No, you don’t have a problem. Get over it. You’re overreacting.” But you know, “This is something that’s a problem for me.”
David Greer:
And I don’t know if I knew for a long time. I just did it. And I didn’t realize how much I was coping with stress, with… So I’m 10 years into this business. And then one of the founders, who originally hired me, she wanted to retire. I bought her out. That was massively stressful. I mean, I’m, I don’t know, 34 years old, two kids. And I’m borrowing high six figure amounts to buy this out. And it’s got a bunch of payback. In that process, I left an accounting office on the 20th floor of a tower here in Vancouver. And I had tears in… I was crying outside the elevator.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow.
David Greer:
In a public high powered accounting organization, just over the stress and anxiety of taking this on. Now, it turns out that my former partner never would’ve executed some of the terms of the conditions. If I missed a payment… She told me that 10 years later.
Duane Osterlind:
But not at the time. Thanks.
David Greer:
Not at the time. And I made sure I banked a whole quarter’s payment so that we could have a disastrous whole quarter. Actually we could have a disastrous two or three quarters and I still would be able to make payments. And it turned out well, and I made a ton of money.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
Right? And also I bought it out and now I’m partners with my former boss. I’m not having employee reviews. It’s like I’ve arrived.
Duane Osterlind:
Really? Great.
David Greer:
So like, “Now I can drink more because I’m-”
Duane Osterlind:
“Because I’ve got it all. So I should-”
David Greer:
Because modern culture. Watch the Hollywood movies, right? When you’ve got it all, you have a drink. Isn’t that what everybody does?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah. But if you’re using that alcohol to soothe yourself in some way, because you’re in some kind of distress, that’s problems. Yeah.
David Greer:
Right.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
I didn’t know that. So that only lasted for 20 years.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
So daily drinking-
Duane Osterlind:
Only 20 years.
David Greer:
Yeah. Only 20 years. So I get to 20 years, my former partner and I have a major disagreement about the future strategy of the company. We end up settling it by him buying me out. So I’m in my early 40s, and I’m now out of a business I’ve been in for 20 years. I got a really good check in my jeans. Not enough to last me for life, but enough to-
Duane Osterlind:
Right. To be comfortable, probably.
David Greer:
Very comfortable. And someone smarter than me, who I met in that transition said to me, “Hey, do you need to work right away?” And I’m like, “No, I’m not done, but I definitely don’t need to work right away.” And she said, when she had a similar transition, she went off to Australia and bought a VW van and went traveling for year.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
And our kids at this point were 12, 10 and six. And I was the… I can still picture her sitting in her office, and I can see the light bulb going off over my head, just like it does in the comics.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Bing.
David Greer:
Bing. And so my wife and I, we had lifetime sailors. So we commissioned a sailboat in the south of France, and we took our three kids, and we homeschooled them for two years.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow.
David Greer:
And sailed more than 5,000 miles in the Mediterranean.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow. How wonderful. Wow.
David Greer:
So a fairytale story, I would see the light, I would stop drinking, and everything would be better after. Well, it turns out the Med is a great place to go drinking.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
Wine costs at least half or a third of what it does in Canada. There’s seaside bars, every place that you pull into…
Duane Osterlind:
Right. And it sounds like, on the outside, everything looks spectacular, and you’re not a fall down, dropdown drunk. And so you’re able to, excuse the pun, sail through this without much problem. But yet something’s going on internally, obviously, with you, that-
David Greer:
I think at that point it was more party. It’s like I put in the 20 years and it’s party time And my wife likes wine too. So it was fine to have wine on the table at night. And she’s not commenting on how much I’m drinking. And in fact, no one ever, in all this time, ever, even when I got sober, ever really commented on my drinking.
Duane Osterlind:
Right, right.
David Greer:
Right? That’s part of that super high capacity ability. And I’m not the kind of drunk that just drinks to blackout, right? It’s more, I drink to that level of intoxication where I’m… And then I maintain that through the whole evening.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. You keep it at that level to keep that buzz going to-
David Greer:
Exactly.
Duane Osterlind:
… even it out to-
David Greer:
And not that out of control, because after all, I’m the kind of guy who loves to control things. I mean, otherwise, why be an entrepreneur?
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Yeah.
David Greer:
Including myself. So I don’t want to get to the total out of control, falling down drunk stage. Then I’d be an alcoholic.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. But I need this buzz.
David Greer:
But I want this buzz.
Duane Osterlind:
So find some happy medium.
David Greer:
Right. So couple things happened on the trip that were, I think, cracked the door, just a tiny, tiny fraction. So we did more than 24 overnight passages in the Mediterranean. And it’s really hard to sail a boat at night, and it can be challenging sailboat in the day. But at night, and there’s a lot of freighter traffic in the Med, and just keeping your family safe. And what was interesting as I reflect back was all of those nights, I never had a problem not drinking. And we did some that were two day, three day, and I’m talking 24 hours a day.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow. Wow.
David Greer:
Right?
Duane Osterlind:
Right. You’re on the boat. You got to keep the boat going. You got to keep it safe and you got to be on constantly.
David Greer:
And normally, I power up to anything, big challenge with alcohol at that point in my life. But that one, it was like, “No, I need to keep…” I didn’t even consciously think about it. I just knew I wouldn’t pick up a drink because it was too serious. The life of my family depended on my being sober. So that was interesting, I mean, in hindsight. I didn’t really pick up on it a lot. I did a little bit at the time. And then our second overnight, we were in the Western Med Sea, and we were actually motor sailing because a big high pressure system had set up. But when a high pressure system sets up, it’s perfectly clear. And we were probably 100 miles from anything. And my son and I came on watch at 2:00 in the morning, and above us was the Milky Way just down to the horizon.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow.
David Greer:
And there were so many stars that we kept mistaking stars at the horizon for lights from boats.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow. Wow.
David Greer:
And it’s unusual to have the star light go that close to the horizon. Right?
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
Especially because usually you’ve got some light source that’s starting to impact it. And I think that was a moment when my higher power touched me, but I didn’t know it. Every time I share my 12 step recovery cakes, I mention that story because I really think it was the grace of something bigger was touching me. And that was in 2002, and I didn’t get sober until 2009, but I just think this was some of-
Duane Osterlind:
Right. It sounds like the awe in that moment of seeing that just took you out of yourself and you were touched by whatever you want to call that force, the higher power.
David Greer:
Exactly.
Duane Osterlind:
It hit you.
David Greer:
And today, when I’m not feeling that connected to something bigger than me, I just go back to that experience.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
And I share that with my son a lot of times. And actually it turns out my sharing it with him is really important to him.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow. That’s awesome.
David Greer:
So we come back from this trip, I’m busy chasing deals, not having a lot of success. I’m doing early stage investing and I’m working for options. And doing board work, it’s just not fulfilling. And I don’t really realize how not fulfilling it is. And then the universe put an extraordinary coach in my path. In 2007, and I hired him on my 50th birthday, we did our first eight hours together.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow. So an intensive, like, “We’re going to-”
David Greer:
Yeah. I’m a classic entrepreneur. There’s two modes. There’s all in or [all] out like. There’s no in between ever.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah. Yeah. I understand that.
David Greer:
So yeah. You other high performers, you know where of I speak. And it took 18 months, but on January 26th, 2009 at 10:30 at night, I had my last drink and I wrote an email to my coach with the topics, some wins I’d been having, and what I wanted to talk about the next day. And the topic was my drinking. And the next day, when our coaching session, which I remember was in the morning, I opened up. First time I’d opened up to myself, let alone another human being that… Because I still, I could give tons of examples of stupid, crazy things that I knew that I was an alcoholic, but I still… And notice I sent an email saying I had a drinking problem.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Right.
David Greer:
I wasn’t prepared to use the A word.
Duane Osterlind:
Totally, totally.
David Greer:
And he coached me to go to 12 step recovery.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow.
David Greer:
And that was a Tuesday. So he made me commit to go to a meeting before the end of the week, by the end of Friday. So again, I’m all in or all out. I go online that afternoon, I had a networking event that was on downtown until 8:00, and I looked. And lo and behold, there is a meeting on literally as I drive on the street by it, a quarter of a block off the main street I’m going to be driving by on my way home anyways.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
So I went to that meeting, and that meeting happens to be in a legion. So legions were founded to support members of the armed service if they’re in or after they’re in the service and it’s a social place. And it’s a bar. So I walk in-
Duane Osterlind:
To the bar.
David Greer:
… and the doors are open. I walk through the outside doors, and there’s an inner door to the bar, and they’re open, and there’s two or three tables with beers on them.
Duane Osterlind:
Oh my.
David Greer:
And I just, I remember just deer in the headlights. I’m just standing there. And a couple people going to the meeting obviously recognize me for what I was. And they said, “Oh, hey. Look, if you’re looking for the meeting, go down the hall and up the stairs.” And I turned and I went down the hall. And it turned out, later I found out, there are actually 12 steps in the stairs.
Duane Osterlind:
Oh, that’s funny.
David Greer:
Yeah. It’s really funny. And I went upstairs to this big room. First meeting, there was probably 50, 60 people there. Of course, I hid out in the back, tried not to talk to anyone. I don’t really… I certainly at the time wasn’t willing to acknowledge how afraid I was. And two young women, Frostine and Esme, I still remember them, they came out of the front of the meeting and just talked to me.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow. So they welcomed you in.
David Greer:
And I’m in my early 50s, they probably in their 20s.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow.
David Greer:
Right? And they just welcome me. And maybe, probably other people talk to me, but I don’t know, just something about the two of them really stood out for me.
Duane Osterlind:
So in some ways, you knew you were in some kind of pain. I mean, obviously you’re seeking help, but going back a little bit to what you were talking about, how, if you’re really a high performer, and driven, and stuff, and on some levels you have all this control. But it’s all contained around this inner pain, if you want to call it. Obviously there was some kind of suffering there, and alcohol numbed that out for you. You didn’t have to pay attention to it.
David Greer:
I don’t like negative feelings.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Right. Well, yeah.
David Greer:
It’s fairly simple. I mean, sometimes we try and complicate it so much, right. But the bottom line is I don’t like negative feelings. And my three biggest fears are I’m not good enough.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
And that it’s always present. It’s always present in business because it’s like, “Am I going to lose customers? Am I going to…” So it just really highlights the I’m not good enough fear. It’s my fault. So that’s my other fear, right? And who do you think you are? “Who do you think you are to deserve a great life? Who do you think you are to…” In my codependency and looking after myself now, I just spent this weekend on our sailboat by myself. And even there, to just go do that, and look after myself is still… There’s some of that, “Who do you think you are to deserve to have a weekend of just being by yourself, and just looking after yourself, and doing the things you need to do to look after yourself? So I there’s still some friction, right?
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Yeah. Well, yeah. I think we can start to understand those wounds that we have, but they always like to pop up, and say, “Hello, here we are.” And as you’re trying to take care of yourself, but I like what you’re saying, and pointing this out, that those beliefs and those feelings were there. But my guess is, like you said earlier, they weren’t conscious until later.
David Greer:
Much later.
Duane Osterlind:
You got sober and-
David Greer:
Exactly, and did a lot of work.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah, it took a lot of work. But so, you’re going along, but you don’t know what’s driving the bus, so to speak. You don’t understand how that stuff is pushing you.
David Greer:
Yes. Totally. And I did stand up at that meeting and say, “I’m David, I’m an alcoholic,” which I think was the breakthrough moment. And that meeting has been my home group for 12 and a half years.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow. Wow.
David Greer:
So that’s been just a really rock solid part of my sobriety. And the first couple weeks, someone recommended to me a private men’s step group. And I still do that every Monday at 6:00. In fact, I’m looking forward to it tonight. And there’s still some of the men that I met at that first meeting, again, probably 12 and a half years ago are still part of the group, including my sponsor.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Wow. That’s awesome. You have relationships.
David Greer:
Yes. And that particular group was really super high powered lawyers, judges. So we really, really have to protect anonymity, both what’s shared, and who’s there with that group.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
But to have someone who I think is super high powered, like a judge, share emotionally, we read a step, step three, and then to hear what it means to another guy… And I remember the first time in those meetings when someone cried, and how uncomfortable I was. I wanted to go over and comfort them, and, “It’s okay.” And I think there’s probably 17 of us that night, and every single person… You could hear a pin drop.
Duane Osterlind:
Just listening.
David Greer:
Just listening. Just holding space for the person to be in their emotion. And later, after a few more years of doing the steps and some therapy work, it was like I realized I was super uncomfortable because I’m uncomfortable with crying, because that wasn’t allowed in the household that I grew up in.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
Right?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
And thank God for that modeling. That’s why, for me, 12 step recovery has been so powerful.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
So anyway, so those have been some of the things that I have done in recovery. I also knew, with Coach Kevin [Kevin Lawrence], that he’s the… I knew that once I admitted it to him, he was going to hound me.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
He was not going to be-
Duane Osterlind:
It’s like a part of your brain knew you needed this. And another part was fighting it.
David Greer:
Exactly. But once I pressed send on the email, I knew the jig was up.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Right.
David Greer:
I didn’t know what was going to happen, but I knew the jig was up because I did trust Kevin. And I just knew he was never going to let me off the hook on this, because that’s the kind of person he is.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. And I mean, it’s like that other part of you, or maybe that your best self, or whatever you want to say, really was advocating for you in that moment, and said, “Nope, we’re pushing that button. We’re pushing that send button and you’re done.” And then doing the work. I would love to talk a little bit about you working with high powered individuals, because I think your story is so relevant to that audience of people who are really… They push to success. They look really good on the outside. They may have companies. They may be judges, like you were saying. And I think there’s a certain personality with that, but there’s also this undercurrent of hurt and pain that, when you’re with that, is never expressed. Rarely.
David Greer:
Yes. Yes. So people ask me, “What’s the number one characteristic of entrepreneurs?” And my response to that is, “Persistence. They persist.”
Duane Osterlind:
Persist. Yeah.
David Greer:
So the question is, so what kind of people persist? They persist beyond unreasonable odds.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
Right? So as you said just a moment ago, they’re driven people. So something in them really causes them to have this drive. And I would say, in a lot of my work with entrepreneurs, that drive comes from a place typically from our family of origin when we really drill down into it, that isn’t necessarily healthy.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
Right? And that’s not why they hire me and I’m not a therapist, but the self-care… So I got from Coach Kevin, in his book, Your Oxygen Mask First, he talks about… And I worked with him to develop this over a number of years, along with all of his other clients. So what we coach around is this idea that there’s three parts to your life, and you need to figure out… So when you’re setting goals for yourself for the year or the quarter, so there’s your career/finances, business is one piece. Then there’s your life, your relationships, your significant other, your family, those things. And then in the middle is yourself. And what most super high performing people do, they’re super, super passionate in my experience. So they’re passionate about their career business, that part of it. They’re passionate about their life and their family. And so it looks like this.
Duane Osterlind:
Shrink.
David Greer:
Where’s you? You’re just squashed in the middle because you don’t make it a priority to look after yourself.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Yeah.
David Greer:
Right? And so that’s some of my coaching with people is, “Okay, so what’s your goal for yourself? What are you going to do that sustains you? Because the truth is, if you don’t look after yourself…” Well, like recovery. If I don’t stay sober and I go back out drinking, I’ll be nothing to anyone.
Duane Osterlind:
Right, right.
David Greer:
Right?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
And if we take it in the bigger context of, “Okay, maybe you don’t use alcohol as a coping mechanism or drugs, but you still are squeezing yourself out.” And eventually you’ll burn out, you’ll get sick. You’ll get depressed. These things will show up because just humans can’t do this, right?
Duane Osterlind:
And if you’re not taking care of yourself, and you have no option but to… I mean, you have no option to take care of your feelings that you don’t want to feel anyway, alcohol, it’s great to work too much, give everybody else everything.
David Greer:
Yes, exactly.
Duane Osterlind:
And then, “Well, the only way I know how to handle it is food, drugs, alcohol, sex, whatever.”
David Greer:
Sex, yeah.
Duane Osterlind:
Whatever it is. And I’m like, “I’m gone. I’m out of it.”
David Greer:
Yes. So you find a lot of entrepreneurs who are workaholics.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
Right?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
And there’s a persona. There’s a whole myth that, to build a successful business, you have to be a workaholic. You do. Don’t get me wrong. You have to work crazy, crazy hard to be a successful entrepreneur, but it doesn’t mean you can’t… Even when I was drinking, even when I was building Robelle, the software company I was with for 20 years, I still spent at least three or four weeks sailing every year.
Duane Osterlind:
Wow.
David Greer:
And I’d have other entrepreneurs, pride, say, “Oh, I only take a week off a year.”
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
And I’m like, “Okay, you’re not clear on the concept here.”
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah. That’s probably not really that being able to practice that self care to bring that balance to your life. But then I think, like what you were saying earlier, before, I guess, having that internal exploration, part of that is driven by these unconscious wounds.
David Greer:
Yes.
Duane Osterlind:
The drive to be, “I’ve got to be… I’m not good enough. I’m not worthy enough. I got to show the world-”
David Greer:
Yeah, like my fear, “Who do I think I am?”
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
Right? To deserve self care.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
To deserve actually doing things that are just 100% for me. And maybe my spouse doesn’t even agree with them.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
Right?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
But that’s her issue, not mine. I know this is what works for sustaining, renewing, looking after me.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. And you need recovery to tune into yourself. Otherwise you got to sit with that discomfort. Like you said, I mean, you go into that meeting the first time, and it’s like, “Oh my gosh. Wait. This is actually about me. I’m uncomfortable. And I don’t know how to sit with this. And this is awful.”
David Greer:
So that’s some of the coaching I do, whether the entrepreneurs are practicing alcoholics, or addicts, or in recovery, or are just normal people, but have other things that come up. Maybe just, in the first year, they’ll just spend 10% of their energy doing something that just looks after themselves. But compared to zero, that’s a big… I only go where clients lead me. I meet each person exactly where they’re at, right?
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
And I just point out things to them, like, “Is this really for you to never go visit your sister or your mom by yourself, even though you know that those are things that really sustain you, and renew you, and make you feel great about life in the world?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah. And sometimes we need someone just to ask us that question to make us think about it, because we’re so on automatic pilot moving, moving, and especially when you’ve got high stakes on the line, and you’ve got huge deals, and huge things, and employees that you got to make sure are taken care of. There’s so much pressure. It’s almost, you don’t even have time to reflect on those questions or even ask those questions. And so, when you sit with somebody who asks them, sometimes that can be just the light bulb.
David Greer:
Yeah. And then another common entrepreneur arc, if you started a business from scratch, you had to do every single thing. And then the business grows and it’s successful. But you got successful by controlling every aspect of it. And at some point, that doesn’t actually serve you, and you probably have control issues anyways, even if you’re not an alcoholic.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. Right.
David Greer:
And so it’s coaching people around letting go of that control and helping them to realize that, if they really… The most limiting factor in most businesses is the entrepreneur themselves.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
The business can only grow to the extent they can grow as human beings.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
Right? Which isn’t why someone necessarily hires me. They hire me to solve a problem.
Duane Osterlind:
Right, right.
David Greer:
Like, “My first reports don’t listen to me.” “Well maybe they don’t listen to you because you always jump in and try and solve the problem rather than just letting them do the stuff they do.” Like, “What do you think? How would you feel if someone said to you, ‘Would you look after this?’ And then you started looking after that and then that person jumped in and took it over?”
Duane Osterlind:
Right. And then, I would imagine when you’re working with people, even on their business stuff, right? That you’re asking these questions, this is going to… In a way, they’re going to have to reflect on some of themselves to be able to even do some of the things that a coach would have them do. So they’re going to be in that situation where they’re going to have to look at some of that, I don’t know, pain, hurt.
David Greer:
Yes, yes. So I will often ask… I have two young entrepreneurs I just started coaching, and they have very… How they discipline employees and kept consistent about it was very different. And so I asked them if they would do an assignment to reflect on conflict, what it means to them.
Duane Osterlind:
Right,
David Greer:
Right? How it’s resolved. And then I said, “And I want you two to get together and I want you to compare notes.”
Duane Osterlind:
Right, yeah.
David Greer:
Because I could tell, even early in our work together that they just… And again, it’s not like one is right and one is wrong. It’s they have very, very different comfort levels. One is quite comfortable with conflict and one is not. The person who’s not comfortable with conflict is not going to discipline employees as much, right? Is not going to be able to hold the line because, to do that, they’re going to have to create conflict.
Duane Osterlind:
Yep. Yep. And if you don’t like conflict… Oh, yeah. Oh, boy.
David Greer:
Yeah. And so I often, again, with my clients, I never tell them, because I’m a coach, I never tell them to do anything. I very often ask them, “Would you be willing to do this reflective assignment?”
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
Right?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah. Yeah. Totally.
David Greer:
Which they can say no to, right? They can always say, “No, I don’t want to do it.” “Okay. You’re not ready for it. Fine. We’ll try something else.” It’s not my place to judge, right? Just move on to my next-
Duane Osterlind:
Everybody has to find their way. I mean, even though I’m a therapist, and I do therapy, and I work with people in that capacity, it is, it’s everybody has to make that choice and they have to find their way. And any kind of helping individual can do is, “Here’s options for you. Have you thought about this question? Have you thought about that? Maybe you can try this.”
David Greer:
Yes. As I remind entrepreneurs, I only have the questions.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
That’s the difference between a coach and a consultant. A consultant has the answers. That’s why you hire them. They’re super expert in whatever area they’re expert in. You hire them to do something, do a project, have the answers. You don’t hire me for that reason because I don’t have the answers. All I have are the questions.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
I have a lot of them and I have a lot of tools. I have reflective pieces. I have resentment pieces you might be-
Duane Osterlind:
Right, right.
David Greer:
Non alcoholics have resentments too. And it doesn’t often… And sometimes they carry them for years, and years, and years.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah. They may not be using alcohol, or yeah, or something to numb them out. But yeah. I mean, we’re all human beings at the end of the day.
David Greer:
I want to just circle back for a minute, or a few minutes, just talk about that early stage of my recovery, but back to entrepreneurs and now getting sober.
Duane Osterlind:
Sure. Yeah.
David Greer:
So early in my sobriety, so I couldn’t imagine not having wine at dinner. Every one of us has that piece that we can’t imagine. That was one of mine. And then the other one that was hard was networking events.
Duane Osterlind:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
David Greer:
And being around alcohol. So I coach people that just make sure you have a drink in your hand. No one will really ever ask you if you have a glass of water in your hand.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
And if someone asks you why you’re not drinking, well, first of all, it’s none of their business.
Duane Osterlind:
Right, right. Yeah.
David Greer:
Really, it isn’t. That’s a personal choice. And just feel free to say, “I’ve just decided that I’m going to lead a healthier life. And one of the things I decided is to take alcohol out of my life. So I’m drinking nonalcoholic beverages.” And I tell people, in my early 50s, I made a choice that I wasn’t going to have alcohol in my life, and that I was going to lead a healthier life. And that way I don’t have to feel any compulsion to justify, defend, talk about my recovery, or where I’m at. I just leave it at that. And if someone pushes it, my experience is usually it’s because they have some issue with alcohol, either from their family of origin, because they’re an alcoholic.
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
Right? And so that’s why they keep pushing it, because they’re uncomfortable because you’re not drinking with them.
Duane Osterlind:
Right. And I think that for people early in recovery, those kind of social situations can be challenging to navigate because you’re so used to a certain way of being that here’s this new way, and how do you set those boundaries for yourself, and practice self-care, and maybe disappoint the other people. Or you think disappoint. I mean, still their stuff. But all those thoughts that go into your mind and the challenges. Yeah, definitely. Those are definitely challenges.
David Greer:
And then others are, did you build a drinking culture in your business?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
Right? Because then you have to first look at how you’re going to operate. If Friday beers for all the staff has always being the deal, you need to go prepare to what you’re going to say to people. How, in the long term, you may want to change your mind on that. Again, it’s not as something I would ever encourage an entrepreneur early in sobriety to worry about, but I would make sure that they’re coached around what they want to say to their staff, what they want to be drinking, what they want to make sure is in the fridge for them.
Duane Osterlind:
And those are challenging situations. I mean, I think maybe someone who hasn’t struggled with alcohol or a substance, it can seem like, “Well, you just say you don’t want to drink.” But for somebody who has struggled with it, these are way bigger, they’re-
David Greer:
Really tough.
Duane Osterlind:
… challenging situations, they’re uncomfortable. Yeah, “How do I say this?” So I’m glad you bring that up, because I think that’s so important to recognize as part of entrepreneurs working through that process.
David Greer:
Or again, a networking event, or even again, the Friday beers. Someone says, “Oh, hey, I’ll get you a drink.”
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
Right? And again, what’s your response? Usually I just say, “No, I’m okay. And when I’m ready for another one, I’ll just go get it. Thanks. But thanks for the offer.”
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah, and I’m just thinking, I would imagine, if you have to deal with other high profile clients, and this is the way in which you knew how to do the social navigation, and get the conversation flowing around business issues, and stuff like that. And then all of a sudden, now that’s taken away. It’s like, “How am I going to be successful if I don’t have this, if I don’t have this in my life? Maybe I can’t do it. Maybe it won’t work. Maybe I’ll be a failure.”
David Greer:
“What will they think of this? I’ll be a failure. What will they think of me?”
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah. All that stuff.
David Greer:
And usually it’s, “They’ll think less of me.”
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah.
David Greer:
It’s not even a question.
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
It’s a statement, right?
Duane Osterlind:
Right.
David Greer:
And then coaching people around, I do have a client of mine who just hired me as a coach, and then got sober very shortly after, who’s in a super, uber high of performing sales with one of the top four tech companies in the world. And just coaching him around escape routes, so that when you go into a social situation, whether it’s personal or professional, and there’s going to be drinking involved, if suddenly you’re triggered, and suddenly you got cravings to drink, or you’re really bothered, how are you going to step away? How are you going to escape from it? And really coaching in social situations to have the discussion with your spouse beforehand, so it’s not a shock to them when suddenly you just disappear, but rather it’s like the two of you should have a code word.
Duane Osterlind:
But this is a question I have. I would imagine, as an entrepreneur, if you can take that energy, and then put it into your recovery in a way, because entrepreneurs are problem solvers, they’re thinkers, they’re doers. They go for it and they take on these huge challenges. I’m just wondering, can that energy be transferred over into their recovery process and into that process?
David Greer:
Well, let’s see. I’ve only done the steps the AA way eight times. I’ve done it-
Duane Osterlind:
That’s right. Okay, there you go.
David Greer:
The ACA yellow book once. And I’ve done the ACA laundry list once in 12 years, so far.
Duane Osterlind:
Right, right.
David Greer:
But I’m a slacker.
Duane Osterlind:
A slacker. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So use that energy.
David Greer:
Do you mean like that?
Duane Osterlind:
Yeah, exactly. Being able to take that and do that. So one more question. You also have a book out there that you’ve written, Wind In Your Sails, right?
David Greer:
Yeah.
Duane Osterlind:
And I’d love to just have you comment about that. And I know that’s written for entrepreneurs.
David Greer:
Yeah. So that one doesn’t make any mention of recovery because I was in recovery at the time, but I wasn’t prepared to talk about it. But that distills my, at the time, 30, 35 years of entrepreneurial experience. And I think there’s only 10 sections of a business you need to think about, or 10 aspects of your business. So that’s the 10 chapters, which is way the subtitle is Vital Strategies That Accelerate Your Entrepreneurial Growth. So those are the 10 strategies. But I’m a real practical, nuts and bolts guy. So I want to give you enough theory that you can understand the concept, and then a whole bunch of tools to go apply it. And so that’s what happens in each chapter. And then I end every chapter with a case study by an entrepreneur who I think is particularly good in that area. So my friend, Murray Goldberg, I think is brilliant on product strategy. And so he’s featured at the end of the chapter on product.
Duane Osterlind:
Right, right.
David Greer:
Right? And they’re typically 1,800 to 2,200 words each. So when we look, a third of the book is other people’s stories. So it’s not just my collected wisdom put into the book, but also that, and another 40 plus people that I interviewed as part of the book. So again, just a lot of nuts and bolts, hard won experience. I intended it to be a reference that you could keep on the shelf, and it’s like, when you’re really stuck, just pull it down. I put a lot of work in the index. Look in the index and go read the two or three pages that apply.
Duane Osterlind:
Awesome.
David Greer:
Right? To what you’re doing right now. And I recorded the audio version two years, maybe three ago now. Two years. And that caused me to reread the book in its entirety. And there was only one small paragraph that I felt was dated. These are overreaching concepts that have been around in business for a long time. And even you can apply to high tech, to medium tech, low tech, because I think the concepts are more about people, process, and how to think about your business. So that’s Wind In Your Sails.
Duane Osterlind:
Awesome. So as we wrap up here, there’s a question I always like to ask every guest when they come on, is if someone out there is listening, maybe they are that entrepreneur, that high achiever who’s struggling. What would you want to say to them? If you could say one thing, what would it be?
David Greer:
You don’t have to do it alone.
Duane Osterlind:
I love it.
David Greer:
That’s what I would say.
Duane Osterlind:
You don’t have to do it alone.
David Greer:
You don’t have to do it alone. And I’m happy to have a one hour coaching call with any entrepreneur, no charge. So if you’re really stuck on an issue, just visit my website. My email, phone number is on every single page [+1 604.721.5732].
Duane Osterlind:
And what’s your website? Throw it out there so people can-
David Greer:
Yeah, it’s coachdjgreer.com. So it’s my full name, is David James. So it’s just my initials, coachdjgreer.com.
Duane Osterlind:
Awesome. And I will link all that in the show notes. David, thank you so much for coming on to the Addicted Mind Podcast. I appreciate your story. I relate a lot to it. So thank you. And thanks for all that you’re doing
David Greer:
Well, thank you so much for having me. It was a great conversation today.
Duane Osterlind:
All right, everyone. Thank you for listening to the Addicted Mind Podcast. As usual, all the links will be in the show notes at theaddictedmind.com. So check that out. And if you’re enjoying the Addicted Mind Podcast, please share it with a friend, or write a review in iTunes. It really does help get the podcast a lot of exposure and helps people find it. And I really appreciate it. And think about joining our Facebook group. You can just go to Facebook, type in the Addicted Mind Podcast, click join, and continue the conversation online. All right, everyone have a wonderful day, and I will talk to you on the next episode.
